Engineer refusing to file/disclose patents












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We have a senior engineer on our team that routinely excels at his work. In addition to his regular work, our company has a patent program where engineers can write up a patent for a novel idea, and submit it to our patent team. Within about 6 months, the engineer will get anything in the range of $300 to $5000, depending on the value of the patent from the perspective of the patent team. This engineer has filed over 30 successful patents over the past 2 years, and all of these inventions are used in our products (and he's made about $110,000.00 from the patent disclosures alone).



The company has recently decided to dial back the benefits for this program, to a simple $100 "finder's fee" for a patent submission, and an additional $900 for a "good" patent. Since employees write these in their spare time, it doesn't surprise me that the number of applications has dropped from 2 per week to maybe 3 per quarter.



Our senior engineer has expressed concern with the company, as he can only make more money by being promoted (our bonus structure is based on length of stay, so employees have to be on board for at least 7 years to earn a decent bonus), and the only offices with openings for higher-level engineering positions would require him and his family to relocate (moving across the country). He's also noted that the decrease in patent-related bonuses hits him hard.



My problem: our senior engineer recently (before the change in benefits) demonstrated some very impressive technology that would speed up a certain process of ours. He also claimed to have written 5 patents associated with it. He's delivered impressive results in the past, so I doubt he was blowing smoke. After the reduction in benefits, he can't seem to recall the patents or find any of the code he used to create his demo. Since he did this all in spare time, it's not in violation of our data retention policies if he just did it all on his home laptop, provided he didn't copy company data to it.



I think he's getting ready to switch jobs, and we need the technical information/code he used to create the demo. His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company. IT has searched his OneDrive, laptop, etc., and we can't find a single shred of code/documentation on these ideas. I've tried offering a one-off bonus for him to just anonymously leave a thumb drive with the data on my desk after hours, but he just claims he "doesn't know what I'm talking about".



How can I resolve this?



I can offer a one-off bonus, and I can offer him a significant promotion (but it requires he move to a less desirable part of the country). I can't give him a raise in his current position, and members of senior management no longer trust him due to his "funny" behavior as of late (well has been poisoned a bit). He doesn't want to move at all, and even an offer of $25,000.00 for the IP didn't work, which would have been according to the "old rules". I think he's worried that by agreeing to such a deal, he's opening himself up to legal liability (it would involve indirectly admitting he was being dicey/dishonest about "not knowing what I'm talking about").










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120















We have a senior engineer on our team that routinely excels at his work. In addition to his regular work, our company has a patent program where engineers can write up a patent for a novel idea, and submit it to our patent team. Within about 6 months, the engineer will get anything in the range of $300 to $5000, depending on the value of the patent from the perspective of the patent team. This engineer has filed over 30 successful patents over the past 2 years, and all of these inventions are used in our products (and he's made about $110,000.00 from the patent disclosures alone).



The company has recently decided to dial back the benefits for this program, to a simple $100 "finder's fee" for a patent submission, and an additional $900 for a "good" patent. Since employees write these in their spare time, it doesn't surprise me that the number of applications has dropped from 2 per week to maybe 3 per quarter.



Our senior engineer has expressed concern with the company, as he can only make more money by being promoted (our bonus structure is based on length of stay, so employees have to be on board for at least 7 years to earn a decent bonus), and the only offices with openings for higher-level engineering positions would require him and his family to relocate (moving across the country). He's also noted that the decrease in patent-related bonuses hits him hard.



My problem: our senior engineer recently (before the change in benefits) demonstrated some very impressive technology that would speed up a certain process of ours. He also claimed to have written 5 patents associated with it. He's delivered impressive results in the past, so I doubt he was blowing smoke. After the reduction in benefits, he can't seem to recall the patents or find any of the code he used to create his demo. Since he did this all in spare time, it's not in violation of our data retention policies if he just did it all on his home laptop, provided he didn't copy company data to it.



I think he's getting ready to switch jobs, and we need the technical information/code he used to create the demo. His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company. IT has searched his OneDrive, laptop, etc., and we can't find a single shred of code/documentation on these ideas. I've tried offering a one-off bonus for him to just anonymously leave a thumb drive with the data on my desk after hours, but he just claims he "doesn't know what I'm talking about".



How can I resolve this?



I can offer a one-off bonus, and I can offer him a significant promotion (but it requires he move to a less desirable part of the country). I can't give him a raise in his current position, and members of senior management no longer trust him due to his "funny" behavior as of late (well has been poisoned a bit). He doesn't want to move at all, and even an offer of $25,000.00 for the IP didn't work, which would have been according to the "old rules". I think he's worried that by agreeing to such a deal, he's opening himself up to legal liability (it would involve indirectly admitting he was being dicey/dishonest about "not knowing what I'm talking about").










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We have a senior engineer on our team that routinely excels at his work. In addition to his regular work, our company has a patent program where engineers can write up a patent for a novel idea, and submit it to our patent team. Within about 6 months, the engineer will get anything in the range of $300 to $5000, depending on the value of the patent from the perspective of the patent team. This engineer has filed over 30 successful patents over the past 2 years, and all of these inventions are used in our products (and he's made about $110,000.00 from the patent disclosures alone).



The company has recently decided to dial back the benefits for this program, to a simple $100 "finder's fee" for a patent submission, and an additional $900 for a "good" patent. Since employees write these in their spare time, it doesn't surprise me that the number of applications has dropped from 2 per week to maybe 3 per quarter.



Our senior engineer has expressed concern with the company, as he can only make more money by being promoted (our bonus structure is based on length of stay, so employees have to be on board for at least 7 years to earn a decent bonus), and the only offices with openings for higher-level engineering positions would require him and his family to relocate (moving across the country). He's also noted that the decrease in patent-related bonuses hits him hard.



My problem: our senior engineer recently (before the change in benefits) demonstrated some very impressive technology that would speed up a certain process of ours. He also claimed to have written 5 patents associated with it. He's delivered impressive results in the past, so I doubt he was blowing smoke. After the reduction in benefits, he can't seem to recall the patents or find any of the code he used to create his demo. Since he did this all in spare time, it's not in violation of our data retention policies if he just did it all on his home laptop, provided he didn't copy company data to it.



I think he's getting ready to switch jobs, and we need the technical information/code he used to create the demo. His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company. IT has searched his OneDrive, laptop, etc., and we can't find a single shred of code/documentation on these ideas. I've tried offering a one-off bonus for him to just anonymously leave a thumb drive with the data on my desk after hours, but he just claims he "doesn't know what I'm talking about".



How can I resolve this?



I can offer a one-off bonus, and I can offer him a significant promotion (but it requires he move to a less desirable part of the country). I can't give him a raise in his current position, and members of senior management no longer trust him due to his "funny" behavior as of late (well has been poisoned a bit). He doesn't want to move at all, and even an offer of $25,000.00 for the IP didn't work, which would have been according to the "old rules". I think he's worried that by agreeing to such a deal, he's opening himself up to legal liability (it would involve indirectly admitting he was being dicey/dishonest about "not knowing what I'm talking about").










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We have a senior engineer on our team that routinely excels at his work. In addition to his regular work, our company has a patent program where engineers can write up a patent for a novel idea, and submit it to our patent team. Within about 6 months, the engineer will get anything in the range of $300 to $5000, depending on the value of the patent from the perspective of the patent team. This engineer has filed over 30 successful patents over the past 2 years, and all of these inventions are used in our products (and he's made about $110,000.00 from the patent disclosures alone).



The company has recently decided to dial back the benefits for this program, to a simple $100 "finder's fee" for a patent submission, and an additional $900 for a "good" patent. Since employees write these in their spare time, it doesn't surprise me that the number of applications has dropped from 2 per week to maybe 3 per quarter.



Our senior engineer has expressed concern with the company, as he can only make more money by being promoted (our bonus structure is based on length of stay, so employees have to be on board for at least 7 years to earn a decent bonus), and the only offices with openings for higher-level engineering positions would require him and his family to relocate (moving across the country). He's also noted that the decrease in patent-related bonuses hits him hard.



My problem: our senior engineer recently (before the change in benefits) demonstrated some very impressive technology that would speed up a certain process of ours. He also claimed to have written 5 patents associated with it. He's delivered impressive results in the past, so I doubt he was blowing smoke. After the reduction in benefits, he can't seem to recall the patents or find any of the code he used to create his demo. Since he did this all in spare time, it's not in violation of our data retention policies if he just did it all on his home laptop, provided he didn't copy company data to it.



I think he's getting ready to switch jobs, and we need the technical information/code he used to create the demo. His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company. IT has searched his OneDrive, laptop, etc., and we can't find a single shred of code/documentation on these ideas. I've tried offering a one-off bonus for him to just anonymously leave a thumb drive with the data on my desk after hours, but he just claims he "doesn't know what I'm talking about".



How can I resolve this?



I can offer a one-off bonus, and I can offer him a significant promotion (but it requires he move to a less desirable part of the country). I can't give him a raise in his current position, and members of senior management no longer trust him due to his "funny" behavior as of late (well has been poisoned a bit). He doesn't want to move at all, and even an offer of $25,000.00 for the IP didn't work, which would have been according to the "old rules". I think he's worried that by agreeing to such a deal, he's opening himself up to legal liability (it would involve indirectly admitting he was being dicey/dishonest about "not knowing what I'm talking about").







conflict company-policy performance benefits intellectual-property






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12 Answers
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I find it interesting that your company has devalued patents significantly, and then seemed surprised when some of your engineers have decided it's not worth their time.



You talk about trust, but it's evident that the engineer does not trust you, as he opted to lie about forgetting, rather than saying "No thank you. I do not wish to share this work.".



I wonder, did he say "no", and was he then forced into saying he forgot because he was threatened either explicitly or implicitly by you or the company?



The very fact you have IT going through everything he has touched at work, presumably for a scrap of proof that will allow you to force him to produce work that he did in his free time suggests to me that he is right to lie, play stupid, and refuse your advances.



The business has made a decision to significantly reduce the benefit for patents. They would have factored in scenarios such as this, as the cost of doing business. There is a chance that you'll lose not just a stream of patents, but engineers. Probably starting with your best ones.



It sounds like you've committed to lose him. Because you wouldn't be treating him like this if you wanted to keep him. Clearly you've put a significant value on some of his work, at the expense of all future work of his, and you'll get neither.



I'd just chalk this off as a learning exercise for the company.






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  • 21





    The employee is lying rather than sharing the work because the clause in his contract makes it the companies property. He is legally required to share it if he has it. But if he doesn't remember where it is. . .

    – bruglesco
    yesterday






  • 48





    @PyRulez (again IANAL), but I don't see how — from what the OP has said, it sounds like work that he was doing in his own time. The company could put in a clause around copyright belonging to them on everything you do, but I don't think they could have a clause saying that you have to keep everything you ever do, even out of hours

    – anotherdave
    yesterday






  • 74





    If the company somehow decides "forgetting" == "contractual negligence", I suspect it will greatly increase the exodus of the rest of the decent engineers. Who would want to work somewhere where the mere suggestion they forgot something could be held against them, whether it's as a barrier to advancement or a legal liability?

    – gregmac
    yesterday






  • 18





    The company needs to add a clause that anything his descendants develop is also theirs....

    – Solar Mike
    18 hours ago






  • 10





    "It sounds like you've committed to lose him." sums up this situation beautifully.

    – MonkeyZeus
    14 hours ago



















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30 patents in two years is roughly $75k a year that's been changed to $15k. So he's been given a $60k a year in pay reduction.



So, yeah, he's probably going to quit and go work for someone else. Further everyone is acting like that's the case. The company's relationship with him is broken, it can't be fixed.




How can I resolve this?




In terms of getting the current code, which he developed on his own time and not on company computers or using company resources:



Wait until he quits, then offer to hire him as a consultant to develop the code you know darn well he has. Let's make some WAGs here. 1000 hours to make this code at $250/hour. So if it's worth $250k to you, offer him that and wait a few months for him to do it so everyone can say with a straight face that he developed it while not under that clause which says the company owns everything in his head while he works for you.






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  • 144





    +1 for the "consulting" idea. That's a good way for everyone to have at least a chance to get what they want and it allows everyone to save face in a screwed up situation.

    – Hilmar
    yesterday






  • 5





    Furthermore, this idea could mend the relationship and make it possible to rehire him afterwards, but under more reasonable conditions.

    – d-b
    yesterday






  • 5





    I really hope the company does make this formal offer, because it will constitute an acknowledgement that the IP in question belongs de jure to the senior engineer. He will then be free to sell it to the highest bidder.

    – A. I. Breveleri
    yesterday








  • 4





    This is by far the best answer, especially if he does end up leaving the company. The specifics of the $ amounts and time frame for product delivery will be based on how much and fast you want the product, but the general idea is perfect for both sides to ask for the product as consulting.

    – WetlabStudent
    21 hours ago






  • 1





    They may not even need to wait. law.stackexchange.com/q/38379/22086

    – bruglesco
    11 hours ago



















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Your best alternative really sounds like it is for you to walk away; You are throwing good time after bad trying to entice/squeeze your employee for the new patent. Giving it to you now is an admission that he was lying and opens up his legal exposure.




His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company.




Invention-rights assignments for off-hours are unenforceable depending on the state. (See, for example, https://law.justia.com/codes/california/2005/lab/2870-2872.html) It really is a signal that your company has a fairly predatory legal culture, or at least an outdated one.






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    According to the California law you cite, the statutory exclusion does not include inventions which "[r]elate ... to the employer's business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development of the employer", Cal. Labor Code Sec. 2870(a)(1). Here, where the present invention "would speed up a certain process of ours", the statutory exclusion may not apply. If that is the case, then the invention rights assignment would be valid.

    – bdowling
    yesterday






  • 7





    If the employer written the off-hours invention-rights assignment to reflect that subtlety, I would retract my "predatory legal culture, or at least an outdated one" comment. However, the very general comment by OP is a good indication that he is unaware of the unenforceability issues, and that very specific claims are required. (And to be fair: It's rare for middle managers to have to deal with such minutia.) Naturally, the real determinants are the abilities and resources to litigate, but that is a larger discussion.

    – JP.
    yesterday






  • 3





    +1 for unenforceable. Most people don't generate IP at home, it has to go through a special process to become IP. Most people just work up ideas, which are entirely owned by the person. These clauses the OP has described are meant to be used IFF the employee develops ideas into solutions and markets them for sale on his PT while employed. Even if he were to create the solutions on his PT and not make any move towards creating IP (patent, trademark, publishing) it would still not be in violation, as long as he waits with patenting or etc untill after he has quit.

    – Stian Yttervik
    17 hours ago



















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This engineer has filed over 30 successful patents over the past 2 years, and all of these inventions are used in our products.




This was indication enough for your senior management to not call off the patent encouragement program. The management was somehow unwise enough to change that and put a new policy in place which reduces the benefits of investing time and effort in getting the work done. So, it's no surprise that the people who were "inspired" by the previous program are not interested in continuing with your organization anymore.




His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company. IT has searched his OneDrive, laptop, etc., and we can't find a single shred of code/documentation on these ideas.




I don't know why some organization would choose to underestimate the capability of their workforce! If you believe that person to be smart enough to deliver the results you described, do you believe he will be fool enough to carry around the pieces of evidence in case he does not want to reveal something? This incident might have just made him more determined to leave the organization, for good.



The situation is tough: the only way this ends with a positive outcome for you and your organization is, ensure the engineer gets treated with the "respect" he deserves. If you think he (and his ideas) is as valuable as you describe, talk to your higher management, and create an exception. Make the old rule part of his contract (as an exception) and mention that now and in future also, he would get benefits as he was getting before the introduction of the change.



Also, ensure that you do not pressure him to reveal this particular patent. As you mentioned, he might already have a concern about the legal liabilities. If you can make him comfortable enough, in time, he will come out with patent ideas which will help your organization, but allow him the time he needs to "regain" the confidence.



To add a touch of reality: After trying all this damage control and more, if he chooses to stay, I'd consider you and your organization incredibly lucky. He added value to your organization, and he was paid off by change in policy which basically invalidates all his effort and talent. Try hard to retain him, but don't get your hopes high.



TL;DR Do not give him the feeling that any of the actions you take to try to retain him is a one-off activity. Show him that the company values him and his contribution, and he is safeguarded against any possible devaluation of his efforts / contribution. His interests will be taken care of this time and in future, also.






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  • 34





    That IP clause is only going to ensure that he never uses the property on his own. It won't compel him to turn over the work. +1

    – bruglesco
    yesterday






  • 1





    @bruglesco not never. Just not while he is employed and a reasonable time-span after. If he uses the IP in one or two years after quitting, there is no way to prove he did any of this while employed there.

    – Josef
    17 hours ago



















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This is a negotiation. Your senior engineer was doing this work in his spare time in exchange for financial compensation. Your company suddenly changed the price they were willing to pay. Your senior is Not offering the product at that price.



Any attempt to compel him to provide the patents will likely cause him to dig in his heels and also find work elsewhere.



You are raving up and down throughout your entire post about how awesome he is. Find a way to get him his money. He is clearly worth it. Upper management may not be happy with his current stance. It sounds like they are digging in their heels. Negotiation will partly need to be with them. You will need to convince them that smoothing things over with him and his ego are worth it (that's assuming it is, not every brilliant worker is worth the entitlement that pursues them.)



As for him balking at the offer at the previous price, you need to find a way to smooth things over. To assure him that things will be better. Probably now and moving forward. His ego is probably a little (understandably) bruised. So factor that into your attempts to smooth things over. After all the company just drastically devalued the work he was doing. It had to feel like a slap in the face and the wallet. It may also take getting legal reassurances from a lawyer to mitigate his concern for legal liabilities.



(If the promotion with the move is unappealing to him then take it off the table. It has no negotiable value.)






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  • 9





    He balking at the previous price because he took a $55k+ pay cut, so now the last-ditch offer of "$25k and my word as a gentleman that we won't try to sue you" seems like way too little to late.

    – Meg
    12 hours ago











  • @Meg true. To be honest that's why I support Dark Matter's answer the most. It has a negotiation tactic with the highest likelihood of success

    – bruglesco
    12 hours ago



















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You solve it by figuring out how to offer this stellar engineer a very large sum of money in terms of a salary to stay on board. If he earned $110k on patents through your company patent program then this guy knows what he is talking about and basically needs to be paid tenure. You then grin and bear it with his recent memory loss.






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    8















    I think he's worried that by agreeing to such a deal, he's opening himself up to legal liability (it would involve indirectly admitting he was being dicey/dishonest about "not knowing what I'm talking about").




    If he is concerned about liability, then why don't you offer him a release or waiver of liability? A lawyer should be able to help you with this.






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    We're looking for long answers that provide some explanation and context. Don't just give a one-line answer; explain why your answer is right, ideally with citations. Answers that don't include explanations may be removed.










    • 4





      This is a comment rather than a full answer.

      – Alexei
      22 hours ago






    • 2





      @gnat The problem is with the question soliciting possible options ("How can I resolve this?"). This answer offers one such option. Indeed it's a matter of opinion as to which idea is best, no matter how long such answers are. Your example would be a clear NAA, because it doesn't tell what to do.

      – Dmitry Grigoryev
      14 hours ago



















    5















    His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company. IT has searched his OneDrive, laptop, etc., and we can't find a single shred of code/documentation on these ideas.




    An idea is not intellectual property. The code, documentation and other tangible results of those ideas are. If you have not found anything, you have nothing.




    Since he did this all in spare time, it's not in violation of our data retention policies if he just did it all on his home laptop, provided he didn't copy company data to it.




    Regardless of the legality of such a clause (I have my doubts, but that's for the lawyers to decide), you say that everything he does in his free time is owned by you, but then again he doesn't have to keep anything that could actually be considered intellectual property. That doesn't make much sense.




    I can offer a one-off bonus, and I can offer him a significant promotion (but it requires he move to a less desirable part of the country). I can't give him a raise in his current position, and members of senior management no longer trust him due to his "funny" behavior as of late (well has been poisoned a bit).




    You are talking about technicalities. See it from your engineer's perspective: You are finding a lot of bureaucratic reasons why he can't get the compensation he thinks he deserves. On the other hand, your desperate measures to obtain what you think he has (but you can't prove he has) show how valuable this guy is to you.



    Some aspects of your employee's behavior are questionable, but given the situation you are in, I would doubt the wisdom of the series of decisions that you as a company have made in this matter.



    I only see two possible outcomes if this situation, which depends on the question on how important this enigneer is to you (also considering if you can - and want - to find a way to continue working together):




    1. You decide that your employee is too valuable to lose and offer him a better package, regardless of any policies you have in place in your company. It is probably be too late for that, but maybe you find a way to un-poison the well.

    2. You face the fact that you will have to do without your engineer (he is looking for another job already) and you assess the situation you are in, namely how you replace him and how you deal with the code and documentation you think he has somewehre. You have to be aware that this might involve a long and costly legal battle - unless you can agree on a deal both sides can live with (it seems offering $25,000 wasn't it). How you handle this issue will also send a message to all current and future employees (for better or worse).






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      2














      Your going to have to offer him a way out without repercussions.




      We "company" will not peruse and legal actions or hold the past
      against you. ...etc



      We wish to negotiate a higher level of patent applications of the
      same or better quality as previously demonstrated. Contact "name" to
      pursue this matter.



      signed all relevant managers/people




      Then he can re-introduce whatever ideas he had as brand new ideas and both parties can again benefit.



      Clearly he is interested in more money. Your company then needs to negotiate an equitable contract. If his ideas are that good they pay for themselves. If its a money issue negotiate a money over time. He can still have $2000 for his idea, but it will be spread out over 5 months or etc. Maybe you need to offer some kind of percentage 50% of the benefit for 6 months or something.






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      • Some professional associations have union-like group contracts, this IP mess could be a part of it. Maybe even part of the statute.

        – Erkin Alp Güney
        13 hours ago





















      1














      If you are genuinely interested in restoring your engineer's commitment to the company, and vice versa, offering him a stake in the company seems like at least an avenue to explore. I'm sure you don't have the authorization to proceed with this on your own, but perhaps you could propose something along these lines to upper management.



      Forget old grudges. Offer this as a "no strings attached" other than perhaps a commitment to stay with the company for another 6-12 months.



      The immediate value of these shares can by no means be seen as adequate compensation. Let's say you can offer him $10k worth of shares -- and this would probably be quite a lot more than you can actually offer him. The value over time might optimistically double or triple if the company is successful, and on top, there are some scraps from dividends. Do the math and see if you can find a valuation which makes sense to offer him.



      An important caveat is that you are probably not allowed to just give him a bunch of company shares. An arrangement where some of the current owners pitch in and agree to sell to him, and him alone, at a discounted price might work, though he will probably have to pay a sum which is larger than you would like (otherwise it will be seen as tax evasion and/or illegal for other reasons in many jurisdictions).



      Options used to be another popular mechanism -- reserve a bunch of shares at today's price, and offer them to him for that price in something like 2-5 years if he is still at the company. This is a bet on rising stock prices, which of course doesn't make a lot of sense if your company isn't publicly traded.



      I'm no expert on this, but I hope you get the idea -- offering him a slice of the success he is hopefully helping to build is a way to attach him to the company and align his attitude with the company's goals, and communicates that you appreciate his contributions, even though the company is (apparently) no longer able to maintain the previous compensation level.






      share|improve this answer



















      • 7





        As the engineer made at least 100k through patents the last two years, a one-time bonus of 10k is a drop in the bucket.

        – Alexander
        16 hours ago











      • Yeah, ideally you would like to be able to offer more, but if you can project a long-time value of $200k for something which is nominally worth $10k today, you might be able to convince him to accept the offer.

        – tripleee
        16 hours ago











      • @tripleee, it would have to be a very successful company to change $10k to $200k, or it would take a very long time. Either way, the whole idea of promising him a set number of shares some time down the road might not be very enticing to a successful and talented engineer. My company does this, and I don't know if it really stops anyone from leaving. Money right now is more useful to most people than some promised money later on.

        – Catsunami
        9 hours ago











      • Yeah; frankly I'm pessimistic - not least because upper management has clearly shown that they are determined to be A+ sholes about this. But perhaps this idea could be part of a package which is enough to make things almost right for our engineer friend. Bonus plus raise plus shares plus time to work on "solving" the problem he apparently already solved? I still woudn't take it if upper management wants the company to be doomed (while probably still treating themselves to a week in Bahamas and shopping in Paris).

        – tripleee
        8 hours ago





















      0














      Its a perfect example of how a company who gets greedy can run it into the ground. Fire whoever came up with the idea of reducing the patent fees and sincerely apologize to this talented engineer and pray he accepts your apology. Or prepare to have your competition (with your engineer in their team) eventually overtake your business.






      share|improve this answer































        -7














        He makes the bux. You pass the buck. Looking here for a solution to save your job (or at least look good so you can get a promotion)? Offer to take a pay cut. Or better yet tell senior management to take a pay cut to get the funds to pay this guy. Wait till you find out how expensive it is to do 'design by committee'.






        share|improve this answer










        New contributor




        aquagremlin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.










        We're looking for long answers that provide some explanation and context. Don't just give a one-line answer; explain why your answer is right, ideally with citations. Answers that don't include explanations may be removed.










        • 5





          this seems to suggest that the way to look good and get a promotion is to "tell senior management to take a pay cut to get the funds to pay this guy" - sorry, I totally can not understand this reasoning. Please consider editing to help readers see how this is supposed to work. See also: Back It Up and Don't Repeat Others

          – gnat
          19 hours ago










        protected by Mister Positive yesterday



        Thank you for your interest in this question.
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        12 Answers
        12






        active

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        12 Answers
        12






        active

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        active

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        407














        I find it interesting that your company has devalued patents significantly, and then seemed surprised when some of your engineers have decided it's not worth their time.



        You talk about trust, but it's evident that the engineer does not trust you, as he opted to lie about forgetting, rather than saying "No thank you. I do not wish to share this work.".



        I wonder, did he say "no", and was he then forced into saying he forgot because he was threatened either explicitly or implicitly by you or the company?



        The very fact you have IT going through everything he has touched at work, presumably for a scrap of proof that will allow you to force him to produce work that he did in his free time suggests to me that he is right to lie, play stupid, and refuse your advances.



        The business has made a decision to significantly reduce the benefit for patents. They would have factored in scenarios such as this, as the cost of doing business. There is a chance that you'll lose not just a stream of patents, but engineers. Probably starting with your best ones.



        It sounds like you've committed to lose him. Because you wouldn't be treating him like this if you wanted to keep him. Clearly you've put a significant value on some of his work, at the expense of all future work of his, and you'll get neither.



        I'd just chalk this off as a learning exercise for the company.






        share|improve this answer





















        • 21





          The employee is lying rather than sharing the work because the clause in his contract makes it the companies property. He is legally required to share it if he has it. But if he doesn't remember where it is. . .

          – bruglesco
          yesterday






        • 48





          @PyRulez (again IANAL), but I don't see how — from what the OP has said, it sounds like work that he was doing in his own time. The company could put in a clause around copyright belonging to them on everything you do, but I don't think they could have a clause saying that you have to keep everything you ever do, even out of hours

          – anotherdave
          yesterday






        • 74





          If the company somehow decides "forgetting" == "contractual negligence", I suspect it will greatly increase the exodus of the rest of the decent engineers. Who would want to work somewhere where the mere suggestion they forgot something could be held against them, whether it's as a barrier to advancement or a legal liability?

          – gregmac
          yesterday






        • 18





          The company needs to add a clause that anything his descendants develop is also theirs....

          – Solar Mike
          18 hours ago






        • 10





          "It sounds like you've committed to lose him." sums up this situation beautifully.

          – MonkeyZeus
          14 hours ago
















        407














        I find it interesting that your company has devalued patents significantly, and then seemed surprised when some of your engineers have decided it's not worth their time.



        You talk about trust, but it's evident that the engineer does not trust you, as he opted to lie about forgetting, rather than saying "No thank you. I do not wish to share this work.".



        I wonder, did he say "no", and was he then forced into saying he forgot because he was threatened either explicitly or implicitly by you or the company?



        The very fact you have IT going through everything he has touched at work, presumably for a scrap of proof that will allow you to force him to produce work that he did in his free time suggests to me that he is right to lie, play stupid, and refuse your advances.



        The business has made a decision to significantly reduce the benefit for patents. They would have factored in scenarios such as this, as the cost of doing business. There is a chance that you'll lose not just a stream of patents, but engineers. Probably starting with your best ones.



        It sounds like you've committed to lose him. Because you wouldn't be treating him like this if you wanted to keep him. Clearly you've put a significant value on some of his work, at the expense of all future work of his, and you'll get neither.



        I'd just chalk this off as a learning exercise for the company.






        share|improve this answer





















        • 21





          The employee is lying rather than sharing the work because the clause in his contract makes it the companies property. He is legally required to share it if he has it. But if he doesn't remember where it is. . .

          – bruglesco
          yesterday






        • 48





          @PyRulez (again IANAL), but I don't see how — from what the OP has said, it sounds like work that he was doing in his own time. The company could put in a clause around copyright belonging to them on everything you do, but I don't think they could have a clause saying that you have to keep everything you ever do, even out of hours

          – anotherdave
          yesterday






        • 74





          If the company somehow decides "forgetting" == "contractual negligence", I suspect it will greatly increase the exodus of the rest of the decent engineers. Who would want to work somewhere where the mere suggestion they forgot something could be held against them, whether it's as a barrier to advancement or a legal liability?

          – gregmac
          yesterday






        • 18





          The company needs to add a clause that anything his descendants develop is also theirs....

          – Solar Mike
          18 hours ago






        • 10





          "It sounds like you've committed to lose him." sums up this situation beautifully.

          – MonkeyZeus
          14 hours ago














        407












        407








        407







        I find it interesting that your company has devalued patents significantly, and then seemed surprised when some of your engineers have decided it's not worth their time.



        You talk about trust, but it's evident that the engineer does not trust you, as he opted to lie about forgetting, rather than saying "No thank you. I do not wish to share this work.".



        I wonder, did he say "no", and was he then forced into saying he forgot because he was threatened either explicitly or implicitly by you or the company?



        The very fact you have IT going through everything he has touched at work, presumably for a scrap of proof that will allow you to force him to produce work that he did in his free time suggests to me that he is right to lie, play stupid, and refuse your advances.



        The business has made a decision to significantly reduce the benefit for patents. They would have factored in scenarios such as this, as the cost of doing business. There is a chance that you'll lose not just a stream of patents, but engineers. Probably starting with your best ones.



        It sounds like you've committed to lose him. Because you wouldn't be treating him like this if you wanted to keep him. Clearly you've put a significant value on some of his work, at the expense of all future work of his, and you'll get neither.



        I'd just chalk this off as a learning exercise for the company.






        share|improve this answer















        I find it interesting that your company has devalued patents significantly, and then seemed surprised when some of your engineers have decided it's not worth their time.



        You talk about trust, but it's evident that the engineer does not trust you, as he opted to lie about forgetting, rather than saying "No thank you. I do not wish to share this work.".



        I wonder, did he say "no", and was he then forced into saying he forgot because he was threatened either explicitly or implicitly by you or the company?



        The very fact you have IT going through everything he has touched at work, presumably for a scrap of proof that will allow you to force him to produce work that he did in his free time suggests to me that he is right to lie, play stupid, and refuse your advances.



        The business has made a decision to significantly reduce the benefit for patents. They would have factored in scenarios such as this, as the cost of doing business. There is a chance that you'll lose not just a stream of patents, but engineers. Probably starting with your best ones.



        It sounds like you've committed to lose him. Because you wouldn't be treating him like this if you wanted to keep him. Clearly you've put a significant value on some of his work, at the expense of all future work of his, and you'll get neither.



        I'd just chalk this off as a learning exercise for the company.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 17 hours ago









        Pierre Arlaud

        2781713




        2781713










        answered yesterday









        Gregory CurrieGregory Currie

        3,85572236




        3,85572236








        • 21





          The employee is lying rather than sharing the work because the clause in his contract makes it the companies property. He is legally required to share it if he has it. But if he doesn't remember where it is. . .

          – bruglesco
          yesterday






        • 48





          @PyRulez (again IANAL), but I don't see how — from what the OP has said, it sounds like work that he was doing in his own time. The company could put in a clause around copyright belonging to them on everything you do, but I don't think they could have a clause saying that you have to keep everything you ever do, even out of hours

          – anotherdave
          yesterday






        • 74





          If the company somehow decides "forgetting" == "contractual negligence", I suspect it will greatly increase the exodus of the rest of the decent engineers. Who would want to work somewhere where the mere suggestion they forgot something could be held against them, whether it's as a barrier to advancement or a legal liability?

          – gregmac
          yesterday






        • 18





          The company needs to add a clause that anything his descendants develop is also theirs....

          – Solar Mike
          18 hours ago






        • 10





          "It sounds like you've committed to lose him." sums up this situation beautifully.

          – MonkeyZeus
          14 hours ago














        • 21





          The employee is lying rather than sharing the work because the clause in his contract makes it the companies property. He is legally required to share it if he has it. But if he doesn't remember where it is. . .

          – bruglesco
          yesterday






        • 48





          @PyRulez (again IANAL), but I don't see how — from what the OP has said, it sounds like work that he was doing in his own time. The company could put in a clause around copyright belonging to them on everything you do, but I don't think they could have a clause saying that you have to keep everything you ever do, even out of hours

          – anotherdave
          yesterday






        • 74





          If the company somehow decides "forgetting" == "contractual negligence", I suspect it will greatly increase the exodus of the rest of the decent engineers. Who would want to work somewhere where the mere suggestion they forgot something could be held against them, whether it's as a barrier to advancement or a legal liability?

          – gregmac
          yesterday






        • 18





          The company needs to add a clause that anything his descendants develop is also theirs....

          – Solar Mike
          18 hours ago






        • 10





          "It sounds like you've committed to lose him." sums up this situation beautifully.

          – MonkeyZeus
          14 hours ago








        21




        21





        The employee is lying rather than sharing the work because the clause in his contract makes it the companies property. He is legally required to share it if he has it. But if he doesn't remember where it is. . .

        – bruglesco
        yesterday





        The employee is lying rather than sharing the work because the clause in his contract makes it the companies property. He is legally required to share it if he has it. But if he doesn't remember where it is. . .

        – bruglesco
        yesterday




        48




        48





        @PyRulez (again IANAL), but I don't see how — from what the OP has said, it sounds like work that he was doing in his own time. The company could put in a clause around copyright belonging to them on everything you do, but I don't think they could have a clause saying that you have to keep everything you ever do, even out of hours

        – anotherdave
        yesterday





        @PyRulez (again IANAL), but I don't see how — from what the OP has said, it sounds like work that he was doing in his own time. The company could put in a clause around copyright belonging to them on everything you do, but I don't think they could have a clause saying that you have to keep everything you ever do, even out of hours

        – anotherdave
        yesterday




        74




        74





        If the company somehow decides "forgetting" == "contractual negligence", I suspect it will greatly increase the exodus of the rest of the decent engineers. Who would want to work somewhere where the mere suggestion they forgot something could be held against them, whether it's as a barrier to advancement or a legal liability?

        – gregmac
        yesterday





        If the company somehow decides "forgetting" == "contractual negligence", I suspect it will greatly increase the exodus of the rest of the decent engineers. Who would want to work somewhere where the mere suggestion they forgot something could be held against them, whether it's as a barrier to advancement or a legal liability?

        – gregmac
        yesterday




        18




        18





        The company needs to add a clause that anything his descendants develop is also theirs....

        – Solar Mike
        18 hours ago





        The company needs to add a clause that anything his descendants develop is also theirs....

        – Solar Mike
        18 hours ago




        10




        10





        "It sounds like you've committed to lose him." sums up this situation beautifully.

        – MonkeyZeus
        14 hours ago





        "It sounds like you've committed to lose him." sums up this situation beautifully.

        – MonkeyZeus
        14 hours ago













        313














        30 patents in two years is roughly $75k a year that's been changed to $15k. So he's been given a $60k a year in pay reduction.



        So, yeah, he's probably going to quit and go work for someone else. Further everyone is acting like that's the case. The company's relationship with him is broken, it can't be fixed.




        How can I resolve this?




        In terms of getting the current code, which he developed on his own time and not on company computers or using company resources:



        Wait until he quits, then offer to hire him as a consultant to develop the code you know darn well he has. Let's make some WAGs here. 1000 hours to make this code at $250/hour. So if it's worth $250k to you, offer him that and wait a few months for him to do it so everyone can say with a straight face that he developed it while not under that clause which says the company owns everything in his head while he works for you.






        share|improve this answer



















        • 144





          +1 for the "consulting" idea. That's a good way for everyone to have at least a chance to get what they want and it allows everyone to save face in a screwed up situation.

          – Hilmar
          yesterday






        • 5





          Furthermore, this idea could mend the relationship and make it possible to rehire him afterwards, but under more reasonable conditions.

          – d-b
          yesterday






        • 5





          I really hope the company does make this formal offer, because it will constitute an acknowledgement that the IP in question belongs de jure to the senior engineer. He will then be free to sell it to the highest bidder.

          – A. I. Breveleri
          yesterday








        • 4





          This is by far the best answer, especially if he does end up leaving the company. The specifics of the $ amounts and time frame for product delivery will be based on how much and fast you want the product, but the general idea is perfect for both sides to ask for the product as consulting.

          – WetlabStudent
          21 hours ago






        • 1





          They may not even need to wait. law.stackexchange.com/q/38379/22086

          – bruglesco
          11 hours ago
















        313














        30 patents in two years is roughly $75k a year that's been changed to $15k. So he's been given a $60k a year in pay reduction.



        So, yeah, he's probably going to quit and go work for someone else. Further everyone is acting like that's the case. The company's relationship with him is broken, it can't be fixed.




        How can I resolve this?




        In terms of getting the current code, which he developed on his own time and not on company computers or using company resources:



        Wait until he quits, then offer to hire him as a consultant to develop the code you know darn well he has. Let's make some WAGs here. 1000 hours to make this code at $250/hour. So if it's worth $250k to you, offer him that and wait a few months for him to do it so everyone can say with a straight face that he developed it while not under that clause which says the company owns everything in his head while he works for you.






        share|improve this answer



















        • 144





          +1 for the "consulting" idea. That's a good way for everyone to have at least a chance to get what they want and it allows everyone to save face in a screwed up situation.

          – Hilmar
          yesterday






        • 5





          Furthermore, this idea could mend the relationship and make it possible to rehire him afterwards, but under more reasonable conditions.

          – d-b
          yesterday






        • 5





          I really hope the company does make this formal offer, because it will constitute an acknowledgement that the IP in question belongs de jure to the senior engineer. He will then be free to sell it to the highest bidder.

          – A. I. Breveleri
          yesterday








        • 4





          This is by far the best answer, especially if he does end up leaving the company. The specifics of the $ amounts and time frame for product delivery will be based on how much and fast you want the product, but the general idea is perfect for both sides to ask for the product as consulting.

          – WetlabStudent
          21 hours ago






        • 1





          They may not even need to wait. law.stackexchange.com/q/38379/22086

          – bruglesco
          11 hours ago














        313












        313








        313







        30 patents in two years is roughly $75k a year that's been changed to $15k. So he's been given a $60k a year in pay reduction.



        So, yeah, he's probably going to quit and go work for someone else. Further everyone is acting like that's the case. The company's relationship with him is broken, it can't be fixed.




        How can I resolve this?




        In terms of getting the current code, which he developed on his own time and not on company computers or using company resources:



        Wait until he quits, then offer to hire him as a consultant to develop the code you know darn well he has. Let's make some WAGs here. 1000 hours to make this code at $250/hour. So if it's worth $250k to you, offer him that and wait a few months for him to do it so everyone can say with a straight face that he developed it while not under that clause which says the company owns everything in his head while he works for you.






        share|improve this answer













        30 patents in two years is roughly $75k a year that's been changed to $15k. So he's been given a $60k a year in pay reduction.



        So, yeah, he's probably going to quit and go work for someone else. Further everyone is acting like that's the case. The company's relationship with him is broken, it can't be fixed.




        How can I resolve this?




        In terms of getting the current code, which he developed on his own time and not on company computers or using company resources:



        Wait until he quits, then offer to hire him as a consultant to develop the code you know darn well he has. Let's make some WAGs here. 1000 hours to make this code at $250/hour. So if it's worth $250k to you, offer him that and wait a few months for him to do it so everyone can say with a straight face that he developed it while not under that clause which says the company owns everything in his head while he works for you.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered yesterday









        Dark Matter Dark Matter

        5,16121122




        5,16121122








        • 144





          +1 for the "consulting" idea. That's a good way for everyone to have at least a chance to get what they want and it allows everyone to save face in a screwed up situation.

          – Hilmar
          yesterday






        • 5





          Furthermore, this idea could mend the relationship and make it possible to rehire him afterwards, but under more reasonable conditions.

          – d-b
          yesterday






        • 5





          I really hope the company does make this formal offer, because it will constitute an acknowledgement that the IP in question belongs de jure to the senior engineer. He will then be free to sell it to the highest bidder.

          – A. I. Breveleri
          yesterday








        • 4





          This is by far the best answer, especially if he does end up leaving the company. The specifics of the $ amounts and time frame for product delivery will be based on how much and fast you want the product, but the general idea is perfect for both sides to ask for the product as consulting.

          – WetlabStudent
          21 hours ago






        • 1





          They may not even need to wait. law.stackexchange.com/q/38379/22086

          – bruglesco
          11 hours ago














        • 144





          +1 for the "consulting" idea. That's a good way for everyone to have at least a chance to get what they want and it allows everyone to save face in a screwed up situation.

          – Hilmar
          yesterday






        • 5





          Furthermore, this idea could mend the relationship and make it possible to rehire him afterwards, but under more reasonable conditions.

          – d-b
          yesterday






        • 5





          I really hope the company does make this formal offer, because it will constitute an acknowledgement that the IP in question belongs de jure to the senior engineer. He will then be free to sell it to the highest bidder.

          – A. I. Breveleri
          yesterday








        • 4





          This is by far the best answer, especially if he does end up leaving the company. The specifics of the $ amounts and time frame for product delivery will be based on how much and fast you want the product, but the general idea is perfect for both sides to ask for the product as consulting.

          – WetlabStudent
          21 hours ago






        • 1





          They may not even need to wait. law.stackexchange.com/q/38379/22086

          – bruglesco
          11 hours ago








        144




        144





        +1 for the "consulting" idea. That's a good way for everyone to have at least a chance to get what they want and it allows everyone to save face in a screwed up situation.

        – Hilmar
        yesterday





        +1 for the "consulting" idea. That's a good way for everyone to have at least a chance to get what they want and it allows everyone to save face in a screwed up situation.

        – Hilmar
        yesterday




        5




        5





        Furthermore, this idea could mend the relationship and make it possible to rehire him afterwards, but under more reasonable conditions.

        – d-b
        yesterday





        Furthermore, this idea could mend the relationship and make it possible to rehire him afterwards, but under more reasonable conditions.

        – d-b
        yesterday




        5




        5





        I really hope the company does make this formal offer, because it will constitute an acknowledgement that the IP in question belongs de jure to the senior engineer. He will then be free to sell it to the highest bidder.

        – A. I. Breveleri
        yesterday







        I really hope the company does make this formal offer, because it will constitute an acknowledgement that the IP in question belongs de jure to the senior engineer. He will then be free to sell it to the highest bidder.

        – A. I. Breveleri
        yesterday






        4




        4





        This is by far the best answer, especially if he does end up leaving the company. The specifics of the $ amounts and time frame for product delivery will be based on how much and fast you want the product, but the general idea is perfect for both sides to ask for the product as consulting.

        – WetlabStudent
        21 hours ago





        This is by far the best answer, especially if he does end up leaving the company. The specifics of the $ amounts and time frame for product delivery will be based on how much and fast you want the product, but the general idea is perfect for both sides to ask for the product as consulting.

        – WetlabStudent
        21 hours ago




        1




        1





        They may not even need to wait. law.stackexchange.com/q/38379/22086

        – bruglesco
        11 hours ago





        They may not even need to wait. law.stackexchange.com/q/38379/22086

        – bruglesco
        11 hours ago











        77














        Your best alternative really sounds like it is for you to walk away; You are throwing good time after bad trying to entice/squeeze your employee for the new patent. Giving it to you now is an admission that he was lying and opens up his legal exposure.




        His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company.




        Invention-rights assignments for off-hours are unenforceable depending on the state. (See, for example, https://law.justia.com/codes/california/2005/lab/2870-2872.html) It really is a signal that your company has a fairly predatory legal culture, or at least an outdated one.






        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        JP. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.
















        • 1





          According to the California law you cite, the statutory exclusion does not include inventions which "[r]elate ... to the employer's business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development of the employer", Cal. Labor Code Sec. 2870(a)(1). Here, where the present invention "would speed up a certain process of ours", the statutory exclusion may not apply. If that is the case, then the invention rights assignment would be valid.

          – bdowling
          yesterday






        • 7





          If the employer written the off-hours invention-rights assignment to reflect that subtlety, I would retract my "predatory legal culture, or at least an outdated one" comment. However, the very general comment by OP is a good indication that he is unaware of the unenforceability issues, and that very specific claims are required. (And to be fair: It's rare for middle managers to have to deal with such minutia.) Naturally, the real determinants are the abilities and resources to litigate, but that is a larger discussion.

          – JP.
          yesterday






        • 3





          +1 for unenforceable. Most people don't generate IP at home, it has to go through a special process to become IP. Most people just work up ideas, which are entirely owned by the person. These clauses the OP has described are meant to be used IFF the employee develops ideas into solutions and markets them for sale on his PT while employed. Even if he were to create the solutions on his PT and not make any move towards creating IP (patent, trademark, publishing) it would still not be in violation, as long as he waits with patenting or etc untill after he has quit.

          – Stian Yttervik
          17 hours ago
















        77














        Your best alternative really sounds like it is for you to walk away; You are throwing good time after bad trying to entice/squeeze your employee for the new patent. Giving it to you now is an admission that he was lying and opens up his legal exposure.




        His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company.




        Invention-rights assignments for off-hours are unenforceable depending on the state. (See, for example, https://law.justia.com/codes/california/2005/lab/2870-2872.html) It really is a signal that your company has a fairly predatory legal culture, or at least an outdated one.






        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        JP. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.
















        • 1





          According to the California law you cite, the statutory exclusion does not include inventions which "[r]elate ... to the employer's business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development of the employer", Cal. Labor Code Sec. 2870(a)(1). Here, where the present invention "would speed up a certain process of ours", the statutory exclusion may not apply. If that is the case, then the invention rights assignment would be valid.

          – bdowling
          yesterday






        • 7





          If the employer written the off-hours invention-rights assignment to reflect that subtlety, I would retract my "predatory legal culture, or at least an outdated one" comment. However, the very general comment by OP is a good indication that he is unaware of the unenforceability issues, and that very specific claims are required. (And to be fair: It's rare for middle managers to have to deal with such minutia.) Naturally, the real determinants are the abilities and resources to litigate, but that is a larger discussion.

          – JP.
          yesterday






        • 3





          +1 for unenforceable. Most people don't generate IP at home, it has to go through a special process to become IP. Most people just work up ideas, which are entirely owned by the person. These clauses the OP has described are meant to be used IFF the employee develops ideas into solutions and markets them for sale on his PT while employed. Even if he were to create the solutions on his PT and not make any move towards creating IP (patent, trademark, publishing) it would still not be in violation, as long as he waits with patenting or etc untill after he has quit.

          – Stian Yttervik
          17 hours ago














        77












        77








        77







        Your best alternative really sounds like it is for you to walk away; You are throwing good time after bad trying to entice/squeeze your employee for the new patent. Giving it to you now is an admission that he was lying and opens up his legal exposure.




        His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company.




        Invention-rights assignments for off-hours are unenforceable depending on the state. (See, for example, https://law.justia.com/codes/california/2005/lab/2870-2872.html) It really is a signal that your company has a fairly predatory legal culture, or at least an outdated one.






        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        JP. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.










        Your best alternative really sounds like it is for you to walk away; You are throwing good time after bad trying to entice/squeeze your employee for the new patent. Giving it to you now is an admission that he was lying and opens up his legal exposure.




        His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company.




        Invention-rights assignments for off-hours are unenforceable depending on the state. (See, for example, https://law.justia.com/codes/california/2005/lab/2870-2872.html) It really is a signal that your company has a fairly predatory legal culture, or at least an outdated one.







        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        JP. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer






        New contributor




        JP. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        answered yesterday









        JP.JP.

        53117




        53117




        New contributor




        JP. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.





        New contributor





        JP. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.






        JP. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.








        • 1





          According to the California law you cite, the statutory exclusion does not include inventions which "[r]elate ... to the employer's business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development of the employer", Cal. Labor Code Sec. 2870(a)(1). Here, where the present invention "would speed up a certain process of ours", the statutory exclusion may not apply. If that is the case, then the invention rights assignment would be valid.

          – bdowling
          yesterday






        • 7





          If the employer written the off-hours invention-rights assignment to reflect that subtlety, I would retract my "predatory legal culture, or at least an outdated one" comment. However, the very general comment by OP is a good indication that he is unaware of the unenforceability issues, and that very specific claims are required. (And to be fair: It's rare for middle managers to have to deal with such minutia.) Naturally, the real determinants are the abilities and resources to litigate, but that is a larger discussion.

          – JP.
          yesterday






        • 3





          +1 for unenforceable. Most people don't generate IP at home, it has to go through a special process to become IP. Most people just work up ideas, which are entirely owned by the person. These clauses the OP has described are meant to be used IFF the employee develops ideas into solutions and markets them for sale on his PT while employed. Even if he were to create the solutions on his PT and not make any move towards creating IP (patent, trademark, publishing) it would still not be in violation, as long as he waits with patenting or etc untill after he has quit.

          – Stian Yttervik
          17 hours ago














        • 1





          According to the California law you cite, the statutory exclusion does not include inventions which "[r]elate ... to the employer's business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development of the employer", Cal. Labor Code Sec. 2870(a)(1). Here, where the present invention "would speed up a certain process of ours", the statutory exclusion may not apply. If that is the case, then the invention rights assignment would be valid.

          – bdowling
          yesterday






        • 7





          If the employer written the off-hours invention-rights assignment to reflect that subtlety, I would retract my "predatory legal culture, or at least an outdated one" comment. However, the very general comment by OP is a good indication that he is unaware of the unenforceability issues, and that very specific claims are required. (And to be fair: It's rare for middle managers to have to deal with such minutia.) Naturally, the real determinants are the abilities and resources to litigate, but that is a larger discussion.

          – JP.
          yesterday






        • 3





          +1 for unenforceable. Most people don't generate IP at home, it has to go through a special process to become IP. Most people just work up ideas, which are entirely owned by the person. These clauses the OP has described are meant to be used IFF the employee develops ideas into solutions and markets them for sale on his PT while employed. Even if he were to create the solutions on his PT and not make any move towards creating IP (patent, trademark, publishing) it would still not be in violation, as long as he waits with patenting or etc untill after he has quit.

          – Stian Yttervik
          17 hours ago








        1




        1





        According to the California law you cite, the statutory exclusion does not include inventions which "[r]elate ... to the employer's business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development of the employer", Cal. Labor Code Sec. 2870(a)(1). Here, where the present invention "would speed up a certain process of ours", the statutory exclusion may not apply. If that is the case, then the invention rights assignment would be valid.

        – bdowling
        yesterday





        According to the California law you cite, the statutory exclusion does not include inventions which "[r]elate ... to the employer's business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development of the employer", Cal. Labor Code Sec. 2870(a)(1). Here, where the present invention "would speed up a certain process of ours", the statutory exclusion may not apply. If that is the case, then the invention rights assignment would be valid.

        – bdowling
        yesterday




        7




        7





        If the employer written the off-hours invention-rights assignment to reflect that subtlety, I would retract my "predatory legal culture, or at least an outdated one" comment. However, the very general comment by OP is a good indication that he is unaware of the unenforceability issues, and that very specific claims are required. (And to be fair: It's rare for middle managers to have to deal with such minutia.) Naturally, the real determinants are the abilities and resources to litigate, but that is a larger discussion.

        – JP.
        yesterday





        If the employer written the off-hours invention-rights assignment to reflect that subtlety, I would retract my "predatory legal culture, or at least an outdated one" comment. However, the very general comment by OP is a good indication that he is unaware of the unenforceability issues, and that very specific claims are required. (And to be fair: It's rare for middle managers to have to deal with such minutia.) Naturally, the real determinants are the abilities and resources to litigate, but that is a larger discussion.

        – JP.
        yesterday




        3




        3





        +1 for unenforceable. Most people don't generate IP at home, it has to go through a special process to become IP. Most people just work up ideas, which are entirely owned by the person. These clauses the OP has described are meant to be used IFF the employee develops ideas into solutions and markets them for sale on his PT while employed. Even if he were to create the solutions on his PT and not make any move towards creating IP (patent, trademark, publishing) it would still not be in violation, as long as he waits with patenting or etc untill after he has quit.

        – Stian Yttervik
        17 hours ago





        +1 for unenforceable. Most people don't generate IP at home, it has to go through a special process to become IP. Most people just work up ideas, which are entirely owned by the person. These clauses the OP has described are meant to be used IFF the employee develops ideas into solutions and markets them for sale on his PT while employed. Even if he were to create the solutions on his PT and not make any move towards creating IP (patent, trademark, publishing) it would still not be in violation, as long as he waits with patenting or etc untill after he has quit.

        – Stian Yttervik
        17 hours ago











        71















        This engineer has filed over 30 successful patents over the past 2 years, and all of these inventions are used in our products.




        This was indication enough for your senior management to not call off the patent encouragement program. The management was somehow unwise enough to change that and put a new policy in place which reduces the benefits of investing time and effort in getting the work done. So, it's no surprise that the people who were "inspired" by the previous program are not interested in continuing with your organization anymore.




        His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company. IT has searched his OneDrive, laptop, etc., and we can't find a single shred of code/documentation on these ideas.




        I don't know why some organization would choose to underestimate the capability of their workforce! If you believe that person to be smart enough to deliver the results you described, do you believe he will be fool enough to carry around the pieces of evidence in case he does not want to reveal something? This incident might have just made him more determined to leave the organization, for good.



        The situation is tough: the only way this ends with a positive outcome for you and your organization is, ensure the engineer gets treated with the "respect" he deserves. If you think he (and his ideas) is as valuable as you describe, talk to your higher management, and create an exception. Make the old rule part of his contract (as an exception) and mention that now and in future also, he would get benefits as he was getting before the introduction of the change.



        Also, ensure that you do not pressure him to reveal this particular patent. As you mentioned, he might already have a concern about the legal liabilities. If you can make him comfortable enough, in time, he will come out with patent ideas which will help your organization, but allow him the time he needs to "regain" the confidence.



        To add a touch of reality: After trying all this damage control and more, if he chooses to stay, I'd consider you and your organization incredibly lucky. He added value to your organization, and he was paid off by change in policy which basically invalidates all his effort and talent. Try hard to retain him, but don't get your hopes high.



        TL;DR Do not give him the feeling that any of the actions you take to try to retain him is a one-off activity. Show him that the company values him and his contribution, and he is safeguarded against any possible devaluation of his efforts / contribution. His interests will be taken care of this time and in future, also.






        share|improve this answer





















        • 34





          That IP clause is only going to ensure that he never uses the property on his own. It won't compel him to turn over the work. +1

          – bruglesco
          yesterday






        • 1





          @bruglesco not never. Just not while he is employed and a reasonable time-span after. If he uses the IP in one or two years after quitting, there is no way to prove he did any of this while employed there.

          – Josef
          17 hours ago
















        71















        This engineer has filed over 30 successful patents over the past 2 years, and all of these inventions are used in our products.




        This was indication enough for your senior management to not call off the patent encouragement program. The management was somehow unwise enough to change that and put a new policy in place which reduces the benefits of investing time and effort in getting the work done. So, it's no surprise that the people who were "inspired" by the previous program are not interested in continuing with your organization anymore.




        His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company. IT has searched his OneDrive, laptop, etc., and we can't find a single shred of code/documentation on these ideas.




        I don't know why some organization would choose to underestimate the capability of their workforce! If you believe that person to be smart enough to deliver the results you described, do you believe he will be fool enough to carry around the pieces of evidence in case he does not want to reveal something? This incident might have just made him more determined to leave the organization, for good.



        The situation is tough: the only way this ends with a positive outcome for you and your organization is, ensure the engineer gets treated with the "respect" he deserves. If you think he (and his ideas) is as valuable as you describe, talk to your higher management, and create an exception. Make the old rule part of his contract (as an exception) and mention that now and in future also, he would get benefits as he was getting before the introduction of the change.



        Also, ensure that you do not pressure him to reveal this particular patent. As you mentioned, he might already have a concern about the legal liabilities. If you can make him comfortable enough, in time, he will come out with patent ideas which will help your organization, but allow him the time he needs to "regain" the confidence.



        To add a touch of reality: After trying all this damage control and more, if he chooses to stay, I'd consider you and your organization incredibly lucky. He added value to your organization, and he was paid off by change in policy which basically invalidates all his effort and talent. Try hard to retain him, but don't get your hopes high.



        TL;DR Do not give him the feeling that any of the actions you take to try to retain him is a one-off activity. Show him that the company values him and his contribution, and he is safeguarded against any possible devaluation of his efforts / contribution. His interests will be taken care of this time and in future, also.






        share|improve this answer





















        • 34





          That IP clause is only going to ensure that he never uses the property on his own. It won't compel him to turn over the work. +1

          – bruglesco
          yesterday






        • 1





          @bruglesco not never. Just not while he is employed and a reasonable time-span after. If he uses the IP in one or two years after quitting, there is no way to prove he did any of this while employed there.

          – Josef
          17 hours ago














        71












        71








        71








        This engineer has filed over 30 successful patents over the past 2 years, and all of these inventions are used in our products.




        This was indication enough for your senior management to not call off the patent encouragement program. The management was somehow unwise enough to change that and put a new policy in place which reduces the benefits of investing time and effort in getting the work done. So, it's no surprise that the people who were "inspired" by the previous program are not interested in continuing with your organization anymore.




        His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company. IT has searched his OneDrive, laptop, etc., and we can't find a single shred of code/documentation on these ideas.




        I don't know why some organization would choose to underestimate the capability of their workforce! If you believe that person to be smart enough to deliver the results you described, do you believe he will be fool enough to carry around the pieces of evidence in case he does not want to reveal something? This incident might have just made him more determined to leave the organization, for good.



        The situation is tough: the only way this ends with a positive outcome for you and your organization is, ensure the engineer gets treated with the "respect" he deserves. If you think he (and his ideas) is as valuable as you describe, talk to your higher management, and create an exception. Make the old rule part of his contract (as an exception) and mention that now and in future also, he would get benefits as he was getting before the introduction of the change.



        Also, ensure that you do not pressure him to reveal this particular patent. As you mentioned, he might already have a concern about the legal liabilities. If you can make him comfortable enough, in time, he will come out with patent ideas which will help your organization, but allow him the time he needs to "regain" the confidence.



        To add a touch of reality: After trying all this damage control and more, if he chooses to stay, I'd consider you and your organization incredibly lucky. He added value to your organization, and he was paid off by change in policy which basically invalidates all his effort and talent. Try hard to retain him, but don't get your hopes high.



        TL;DR Do not give him the feeling that any of the actions you take to try to retain him is a one-off activity. Show him that the company values him and his contribution, and he is safeguarded against any possible devaluation of his efforts / contribution. His interests will be taken care of this time and in future, also.






        share|improve this answer
















        This engineer has filed over 30 successful patents over the past 2 years, and all of these inventions are used in our products.




        This was indication enough for your senior management to not call off the patent encouragement program. The management was somehow unwise enough to change that and put a new policy in place which reduces the benefits of investing time and effort in getting the work done. So, it's no surprise that the people who were "inspired" by the previous program are not interested in continuing with your organization anymore.




        His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company. IT has searched his OneDrive, laptop, etc., and we can't find a single shred of code/documentation on these ideas.




        I don't know why some organization would choose to underestimate the capability of their workforce! If you believe that person to be smart enough to deliver the results you described, do you believe he will be fool enough to carry around the pieces of evidence in case he does not want to reveal something? This incident might have just made him more determined to leave the organization, for good.



        The situation is tough: the only way this ends with a positive outcome for you and your organization is, ensure the engineer gets treated with the "respect" he deserves. If you think he (and his ideas) is as valuable as you describe, talk to your higher management, and create an exception. Make the old rule part of his contract (as an exception) and mention that now and in future also, he would get benefits as he was getting before the introduction of the change.



        Also, ensure that you do not pressure him to reveal this particular patent. As you mentioned, he might already have a concern about the legal liabilities. If you can make him comfortable enough, in time, he will come out with patent ideas which will help your organization, but allow him the time he needs to "regain" the confidence.



        To add a touch of reality: After trying all this damage control and more, if he chooses to stay, I'd consider you and your organization incredibly lucky. He added value to your organization, and he was paid off by change in policy which basically invalidates all his effort and talent. Try hard to retain him, but don't get your hopes high.



        TL;DR Do not give him the feeling that any of the actions you take to try to retain him is a one-off activity. Show him that the company values him and his contribution, and he is safeguarded against any possible devaluation of his efforts / contribution. His interests will be taken care of this time and in future, also.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 12 hours ago









        Community

        1




        1










        answered yesterday









        Sourav GhoshSourav Ghosh

        7,42943656




        7,42943656








        • 34





          That IP clause is only going to ensure that he never uses the property on his own. It won't compel him to turn over the work. +1

          – bruglesco
          yesterday






        • 1





          @bruglesco not never. Just not while he is employed and a reasonable time-span after. If he uses the IP in one or two years after quitting, there is no way to prove he did any of this while employed there.

          – Josef
          17 hours ago














        • 34





          That IP clause is only going to ensure that he never uses the property on his own. It won't compel him to turn over the work. +1

          – bruglesco
          yesterday






        • 1





          @bruglesco not never. Just not while he is employed and a reasonable time-span after. If he uses the IP in one or two years after quitting, there is no way to prove he did any of this while employed there.

          – Josef
          17 hours ago








        34




        34





        That IP clause is only going to ensure that he never uses the property on his own. It won't compel him to turn over the work. +1

        – bruglesco
        yesterday





        That IP clause is only going to ensure that he never uses the property on his own. It won't compel him to turn over the work. +1

        – bruglesco
        yesterday




        1




        1





        @bruglesco not never. Just not while he is employed and a reasonable time-span after. If he uses the IP in one or two years after quitting, there is no way to prove he did any of this while employed there.

        – Josef
        17 hours ago





        @bruglesco not never. Just not while he is employed and a reasonable time-span after. If he uses the IP in one or two years after quitting, there is no way to prove he did any of this while employed there.

        – Josef
        17 hours ago











        38














        This is a negotiation. Your senior engineer was doing this work in his spare time in exchange for financial compensation. Your company suddenly changed the price they were willing to pay. Your senior is Not offering the product at that price.



        Any attempt to compel him to provide the patents will likely cause him to dig in his heels and also find work elsewhere.



        You are raving up and down throughout your entire post about how awesome he is. Find a way to get him his money. He is clearly worth it. Upper management may not be happy with his current stance. It sounds like they are digging in their heels. Negotiation will partly need to be with them. You will need to convince them that smoothing things over with him and his ego are worth it (that's assuming it is, not every brilliant worker is worth the entitlement that pursues them.)



        As for him balking at the offer at the previous price, you need to find a way to smooth things over. To assure him that things will be better. Probably now and moving forward. His ego is probably a little (understandably) bruised. So factor that into your attempts to smooth things over. After all the company just drastically devalued the work he was doing. It had to feel like a slap in the face and the wallet. It may also take getting legal reassurances from a lawyer to mitigate his concern for legal liabilities.



        (If the promotion with the move is unappealing to him then take it off the table. It has no negotiable value.)






        share|improve this answer





















        • 9





          He balking at the previous price because he took a $55k+ pay cut, so now the last-ditch offer of "$25k and my word as a gentleman that we won't try to sue you" seems like way too little to late.

          – Meg
          12 hours ago











        • @Meg true. To be honest that's why I support Dark Matter's answer the most. It has a negotiation tactic with the highest likelihood of success

          – bruglesco
          12 hours ago
















        38














        This is a negotiation. Your senior engineer was doing this work in his spare time in exchange for financial compensation. Your company suddenly changed the price they were willing to pay. Your senior is Not offering the product at that price.



        Any attempt to compel him to provide the patents will likely cause him to dig in his heels and also find work elsewhere.



        You are raving up and down throughout your entire post about how awesome he is. Find a way to get him his money. He is clearly worth it. Upper management may not be happy with his current stance. It sounds like they are digging in their heels. Negotiation will partly need to be with them. You will need to convince them that smoothing things over with him and his ego are worth it (that's assuming it is, not every brilliant worker is worth the entitlement that pursues them.)



        As for him balking at the offer at the previous price, you need to find a way to smooth things over. To assure him that things will be better. Probably now and moving forward. His ego is probably a little (understandably) bruised. So factor that into your attempts to smooth things over. After all the company just drastically devalued the work he was doing. It had to feel like a slap in the face and the wallet. It may also take getting legal reassurances from a lawyer to mitigate his concern for legal liabilities.



        (If the promotion with the move is unappealing to him then take it off the table. It has no negotiable value.)






        share|improve this answer





















        • 9





          He balking at the previous price because he took a $55k+ pay cut, so now the last-ditch offer of "$25k and my word as a gentleman that we won't try to sue you" seems like way too little to late.

          – Meg
          12 hours ago











        • @Meg true. To be honest that's why I support Dark Matter's answer the most. It has a negotiation tactic with the highest likelihood of success

          – bruglesco
          12 hours ago














        38












        38








        38







        This is a negotiation. Your senior engineer was doing this work in his spare time in exchange for financial compensation. Your company suddenly changed the price they were willing to pay. Your senior is Not offering the product at that price.



        Any attempt to compel him to provide the patents will likely cause him to dig in his heels and also find work elsewhere.



        You are raving up and down throughout your entire post about how awesome he is. Find a way to get him his money. He is clearly worth it. Upper management may not be happy with his current stance. It sounds like they are digging in their heels. Negotiation will partly need to be with them. You will need to convince them that smoothing things over with him and his ego are worth it (that's assuming it is, not every brilliant worker is worth the entitlement that pursues them.)



        As for him balking at the offer at the previous price, you need to find a way to smooth things over. To assure him that things will be better. Probably now and moving forward. His ego is probably a little (understandably) bruised. So factor that into your attempts to smooth things over. After all the company just drastically devalued the work he was doing. It had to feel like a slap in the face and the wallet. It may also take getting legal reassurances from a lawyer to mitigate his concern for legal liabilities.



        (If the promotion with the move is unappealing to him then take it off the table. It has no negotiable value.)






        share|improve this answer















        This is a negotiation. Your senior engineer was doing this work in his spare time in exchange for financial compensation. Your company suddenly changed the price they were willing to pay. Your senior is Not offering the product at that price.



        Any attempt to compel him to provide the patents will likely cause him to dig in his heels and also find work elsewhere.



        You are raving up and down throughout your entire post about how awesome he is. Find a way to get him his money. He is clearly worth it. Upper management may not be happy with his current stance. It sounds like they are digging in their heels. Negotiation will partly need to be with them. You will need to convince them that smoothing things over with him and his ego are worth it (that's assuming it is, not every brilliant worker is worth the entitlement that pursues them.)



        As for him balking at the offer at the previous price, you need to find a way to smooth things over. To assure him that things will be better. Probably now and moving forward. His ego is probably a little (understandably) bruised. So factor that into your attempts to smooth things over. After all the company just drastically devalued the work he was doing. It had to feel like a slap in the face and the wallet. It may also take getting legal reassurances from a lawyer to mitigate his concern for legal liabilities.



        (If the promotion with the move is unappealing to him then take it off the table. It has no negotiable value.)







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited yesterday

























        answered yesterday









        bruglescobruglesco

        4,67341443




        4,67341443








        • 9





          He balking at the previous price because he took a $55k+ pay cut, so now the last-ditch offer of "$25k and my word as a gentleman that we won't try to sue you" seems like way too little to late.

          – Meg
          12 hours ago











        • @Meg true. To be honest that's why I support Dark Matter's answer the most. It has a negotiation tactic with the highest likelihood of success

          – bruglesco
          12 hours ago














        • 9





          He balking at the previous price because he took a $55k+ pay cut, so now the last-ditch offer of "$25k and my word as a gentleman that we won't try to sue you" seems like way too little to late.

          – Meg
          12 hours ago











        • @Meg true. To be honest that's why I support Dark Matter's answer the most. It has a negotiation tactic with the highest likelihood of success

          – bruglesco
          12 hours ago








        9




        9





        He balking at the previous price because he took a $55k+ pay cut, so now the last-ditch offer of "$25k and my word as a gentleman that we won't try to sue you" seems like way too little to late.

        – Meg
        12 hours ago





        He balking at the previous price because he took a $55k+ pay cut, so now the last-ditch offer of "$25k and my word as a gentleman that we won't try to sue you" seems like way too little to late.

        – Meg
        12 hours ago













        @Meg true. To be honest that's why I support Dark Matter's answer the most. It has a negotiation tactic with the highest likelihood of success

        – bruglesco
        12 hours ago





        @Meg true. To be honest that's why I support Dark Matter's answer the most. It has a negotiation tactic with the highest likelihood of success

        – bruglesco
        12 hours ago











        16














        You solve it by figuring out how to offer this stellar engineer a very large sum of money in terms of a salary to stay on board. If he earned $110k on patents through your company patent program then this guy knows what he is talking about and basically needs to be paid tenure. You then grin and bear it with his recent memory loss.






        share|improve this answer




























          16














          You solve it by figuring out how to offer this stellar engineer a very large sum of money in terms of a salary to stay on board. If he earned $110k on patents through your company patent program then this guy knows what he is talking about and basically needs to be paid tenure. You then grin and bear it with his recent memory loss.






          share|improve this answer


























            16












            16








            16







            You solve it by figuring out how to offer this stellar engineer a very large sum of money in terms of a salary to stay on board. If he earned $110k on patents through your company patent program then this guy knows what he is talking about and basically needs to be paid tenure. You then grin and bear it with his recent memory loss.






            share|improve this answer













            You solve it by figuring out how to offer this stellar engineer a very large sum of money in terms of a salary to stay on board. If he earned $110k on patents through your company patent program then this guy knows what he is talking about and basically needs to be paid tenure. You then grin and bear it with his recent memory loss.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered yesterday









            BrianBrian

            1,9851511




            1,9851511























                8















                I think he's worried that by agreeing to such a deal, he's opening himself up to legal liability (it would involve indirectly admitting he was being dicey/dishonest about "not knowing what I'm talking about").




                If he is concerned about liability, then why don't you offer him a release or waiver of liability? A lawyer should be able to help you with this.






                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                bdowling is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.










                We're looking for long answers that provide some explanation and context. Don't just give a one-line answer; explain why your answer is right, ideally with citations. Answers that don't include explanations may be removed.










                • 4





                  This is a comment rather than a full answer.

                  – Alexei
                  22 hours ago






                • 2





                  @gnat The problem is with the question soliciting possible options ("How can I resolve this?"). This answer offers one such option. Indeed it's a matter of opinion as to which idea is best, no matter how long such answers are. Your example would be a clear NAA, because it doesn't tell what to do.

                  – Dmitry Grigoryev
                  14 hours ago
















                8















                I think he's worried that by agreeing to such a deal, he's opening himself up to legal liability (it would involve indirectly admitting he was being dicey/dishonest about "not knowing what I'm talking about").




                If he is concerned about liability, then why don't you offer him a release or waiver of liability? A lawyer should be able to help you with this.






                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                bdowling is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.










                We're looking for long answers that provide some explanation and context. Don't just give a one-line answer; explain why your answer is right, ideally with citations. Answers that don't include explanations may be removed.










                • 4





                  This is a comment rather than a full answer.

                  – Alexei
                  22 hours ago






                • 2





                  @gnat The problem is with the question soliciting possible options ("How can I resolve this?"). This answer offers one such option. Indeed it's a matter of opinion as to which idea is best, no matter how long such answers are. Your example would be a clear NAA, because it doesn't tell what to do.

                  – Dmitry Grigoryev
                  14 hours ago














                8












                8








                8








                I think he's worried that by agreeing to such a deal, he's opening himself up to legal liability (it would involve indirectly admitting he was being dicey/dishonest about "not knowing what I'm talking about").




                If he is concerned about liability, then why don't you offer him a release or waiver of liability? A lawyer should be able to help you with this.






                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                bdowling is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.











                I think he's worried that by agreeing to such a deal, he's opening himself up to legal liability (it would involve indirectly admitting he was being dicey/dishonest about "not knowing what I'm talking about").




                If he is concerned about liability, then why don't you offer him a release or waiver of liability? A lawyer should be able to help you with this.







                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                bdowling is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer






                New contributor




                bdowling is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                answered yesterday









                bdowlingbdowling

                2051




                2051




                New contributor




                bdowling is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.





                New contributor





                bdowling is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.






                bdowling is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.



                We're looking for long answers that provide some explanation and context. Don't just give a one-line answer; explain why your answer is right, ideally with citations. Answers that don't include explanations may be removed.




                We're looking for long answers that provide some explanation and context. Don't just give a one-line answer; explain why your answer is right, ideally with citations. Answers that don't include explanations may be removed.









                • 4





                  This is a comment rather than a full answer.

                  – Alexei
                  22 hours ago






                • 2





                  @gnat The problem is with the question soliciting possible options ("How can I resolve this?"). This answer offers one such option. Indeed it's a matter of opinion as to which idea is best, no matter how long such answers are. Your example would be a clear NAA, because it doesn't tell what to do.

                  – Dmitry Grigoryev
                  14 hours ago














                • 4





                  This is a comment rather than a full answer.

                  – Alexei
                  22 hours ago






                • 2





                  @gnat The problem is with the question soliciting possible options ("How can I resolve this?"). This answer offers one such option. Indeed it's a matter of opinion as to which idea is best, no matter how long such answers are. Your example would be a clear NAA, because it doesn't tell what to do.

                  – Dmitry Grigoryev
                  14 hours ago








                4




                4





                This is a comment rather than a full answer.

                – Alexei
                22 hours ago





                This is a comment rather than a full answer.

                – Alexei
                22 hours ago




                2




                2





                @gnat The problem is with the question soliciting possible options ("How can I resolve this?"). This answer offers one such option. Indeed it's a matter of opinion as to which idea is best, no matter how long such answers are. Your example would be a clear NAA, because it doesn't tell what to do.

                – Dmitry Grigoryev
                14 hours ago





                @gnat The problem is with the question soliciting possible options ("How can I resolve this?"). This answer offers one such option. Indeed it's a matter of opinion as to which idea is best, no matter how long such answers are. Your example would be a clear NAA, because it doesn't tell what to do.

                – Dmitry Grigoryev
                14 hours ago











                5















                His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company. IT has searched his OneDrive, laptop, etc., and we can't find a single shred of code/documentation on these ideas.




                An idea is not intellectual property. The code, documentation and other tangible results of those ideas are. If you have not found anything, you have nothing.




                Since he did this all in spare time, it's not in violation of our data retention policies if he just did it all on his home laptop, provided he didn't copy company data to it.




                Regardless of the legality of such a clause (I have my doubts, but that's for the lawyers to decide), you say that everything he does in his free time is owned by you, but then again he doesn't have to keep anything that could actually be considered intellectual property. That doesn't make much sense.




                I can offer a one-off bonus, and I can offer him a significant promotion (but it requires he move to a less desirable part of the country). I can't give him a raise in his current position, and members of senior management no longer trust him due to his "funny" behavior as of late (well has been poisoned a bit).




                You are talking about technicalities. See it from your engineer's perspective: You are finding a lot of bureaucratic reasons why he can't get the compensation he thinks he deserves. On the other hand, your desperate measures to obtain what you think he has (but you can't prove he has) show how valuable this guy is to you.



                Some aspects of your employee's behavior are questionable, but given the situation you are in, I would doubt the wisdom of the series of decisions that you as a company have made in this matter.



                I only see two possible outcomes if this situation, which depends on the question on how important this enigneer is to you (also considering if you can - and want - to find a way to continue working together):




                1. You decide that your employee is too valuable to lose and offer him a better package, regardless of any policies you have in place in your company. It is probably be too late for that, but maybe you find a way to un-poison the well.

                2. You face the fact that you will have to do without your engineer (he is looking for another job already) and you assess the situation you are in, namely how you replace him and how you deal with the code and documentation you think he has somewehre. You have to be aware that this might involve a long and costly legal battle - unless you can agree on a deal both sides can live with (it seems offering $25,000 wasn't it). How you handle this issue will also send a message to all current and future employees (for better or worse).






                share|improve this answer






























                  5















                  His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company. IT has searched his OneDrive, laptop, etc., and we can't find a single shred of code/documentation on these ideas.




                  An idea is not intellectual property. The code, documentation and other tangible results of those ideas are. If you have not found anything, you have nothing.




                  Since he did this all in spare time, it's not in violation of our data retention policies if he just did it all on his home laptop, provided he didn't copy company data to it.




                  Regardless of the legality of such a clause (I have my doubts, but that's for the lawyers to decide), you say that everything he does in his free time is owned by you, but then again he doesn't have to keep anything that could actually be considered intellectual property. That doesn't make much sense.




                  I can offer a one-off bonus, and I can offer him a significant promotion (but it requires he move to a less desirable part of the country). I can't give him a raise in his current position, and members of senior management no longer trust him due to his "funny" behavior as of late (well has been poisoned a bit).




                  You are talking about technicalities. See it from your engineer's perspective: You are finding a lot of bureaucratic reasons why he can't get the compensation he thinks he deserves. On the other hand, your desperate measures to obtain what you think he has (but you can't prove he has) show how valuable this guy is to you.



                  Some aspects of your employee's behavior are questionable, but given the situation you are in, I would doubt the wisdom of the series of decisions that you as a company have made in this matter.



                  I only see two possible outcomes if this situation, which depends on the question on how important this enigneer is to you (also considering if you can - and want - to find a way to continue working together):




                  1. You decide that your employee is too valuable to lose and offer him a better package, regardless of any policies you have in place in your company. It is probably be too late for that, but maybe you find a way to un-poison the well.

                  2. You face the fact that you will have to do without your engineer (he is looking for another job already) and you assess the situation you are in, namely how you replace him and how you deal with the code and documentation you think he has somewehre. You have to be aware that this might involve a long and costly legal battle - unless you can agree on a deal both sides can live with (it seems offering $25,000 wasn't it). How you handle this issue will also send a message to all current and future employees (for better or worse).






                  share|improve this answer




























                    5












                    5








                    5








                    His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company. IT has searched his OneDrive, laptop, etc., and we can't find a single shred of code/documentation on these ideas.




                    An idea is not intellectual property. The code, documentation and other tangible results of those ideas are. If you have not found anything, you have nothing.




                    Since he did this all in spare time, it's not in violation of our data retention policies if he just did it all on his home laptop, provided he didn't copy company data to it.




                    Regardless of the legality of such a clause (I have my doubts, but that's for the lawyers to decide), you say that everything he does in his free time is owned by you, but then again he doesn't have to keep anything that could actually be considered intellectual property. That doesn't make much sense.




                    I can offer a one-off bonus, and I can offer him a significant promotion (but it requires he move to a less desirable part of the country). I can't give him a raise in his current position, and members of senior management no longer trust him due to his "funny" behavior as of late (well has been poisoned a bit).




                    You are talking about technicalities. See it from your engineer's perspective: You are finding a lot of bureaucratic reasons why he can't get the compensation he thinks he deserves. On the other hand, your desperate measures to obtain what you think he has (but you can't prove he has) show how valuable this guy is to you.



                    Some aspects of your employee's behavior are questionable, but given the situation you are in, I would doubt the wisdom of the series of decisions that you as a company have made in this matter.



                    I only see two possible outcomes if this situation, which depends on the question on how important this enigneer is to you (also considering if you can - and want - to find a way to continue working together):




                    1. You decide that your employee is too valuable to lose and offer him a better package, regardless of any policies you have in place in your company. It is probably be too late for that, but maybe you find a way to un-poison the well.

                    2. You face the fact that you will have to do without your engineer (he is looking for another job already) and you assess the situation you are in, namely how you replace him and how you deal with the code and documentation you think he has somewehre. You have to be aware that this might involve a long and costly legal battle - unless you can agree on a deal both sides can live with (it seems offering $25,000 wasn't it). How you handle this issue will also send a message to all current and future employees (for better or worse).






                    share|improve this answer
















                    His employment agreement states that any and all intellectual property he generates while employed with us, even during weekends/free-time, is the property of the company. IT has searched his OneDrive, laptop, etc., and we can't find a single shred of code/documentation on these ideas.




                    An idea is not intellectual property. The code, documentation and other tangible results of those ideas are. If you have not found anything, you have nothing.




                    Since he did this all in spare time, it's not in violation of our data retention policies if he just did it all on his home laptop, provided he didn't copy company data to it.




                    Regardless of the legality of such a clause (I have my doubts, but that's for the lawyers to decide), you say that everything he does in his free time is owned by you, but then again he doesn't have to keep anything that could actually be considered intellectual property. That doesn't make much sense.




                    I can offer a one-off bonus, and I can offer him a significant promotion (but it requires he move to a less desirable part of the country). I can't give him a raise in his current position, and members of senior management no longer trust him due to his "funny" behavior as of late (well has been poisoned a bit).




                    You are talking about technicalities. See it from your engineer's perspective: You are finding a lot of bureaucratic reasons why he can't get the compensation he thinks he deserves. On the other hand, your desperate measures to obtain what you think he has (but you can't prove he has) show how valuable this guy is to you.



                    Some aspects of your employee's behavior are questionable, but given the situation you are in, I would doubt the wisdom of the series of decisions that you as a company have made in this matter.



                    I only see two possible outcomes if this situation, which depends on the question on how important this enigneer is to you (also considering if you can - and want - to find a way to continue working together):




                    1. You decide that your employee is too valuable to lose and offer him a better package, regardless of any policies you have in place in your company. It is probably be too late for that, but maybe you find a way to un-poison the well.

                    2. You face the fact that you will have to do without your engineer (he is looking for another job already) and you assess the situation you are in, namely how you replace him and how you deal with the code and documentation you think he has somewehre. You have to be aware that this might involve a long and costly legal battle - unless you can agree on a deal both sides can live with (it seems offering $25,000 wasn't it). How you handle this issue will also send a message to all current and future employees (for better or worse).







                    share|improve this answer














                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited 16 hours ago

























                    answered 18 hours ago









                    SefeSefe

                    83429




                    83429























                        2














                        Your going to have to offer him a way out without repercussions.




                        We "company" will not peruse and legal actions or hold the past
                        against you. ...etc



                        We wish to negotiate a higher level of patent applications of the
                        same or better quality as previously demonstrated. Contact "name" to
                        pursue this matter.



                        signed all relevant managers/people




                        Then he can re-introduce whatever ideas he had as brand new ideas and both parties can again benefit.



                        Clearly he is interested in more money. Your company then needs to negotiate an equitable contract. If his ideas are that good they pay for themselves. If its a money issue negotiate a money over time. He can still have $2000 for his idea, but it will be spread out over 5 months or etc. Maybe you need to offer some kind of percentage 50% of the benefit for 6 months or something.






                        share|improve this answer
























                        • Some professional associations have union-like group contracts, this IP mess could be a part of it. Maybe even part of the statute.

                          – Erkin Alp Güney
                          13 hours ago


















                        2














                        Your going to have to offer him a way out without repercussions.




                        We "company" will not peruse and legal actions or hold the past
                        against you. ...etc



                        We wish to negotiate a higher level of patent applications of the
                        same or better quality as previously demonstrated. Contact "name" to
                        pursue this matter.



                        signed all relevant managers/people




                        Then he can re-introduce whatever ideas he had as brand new ideas and both parties can again benefit.



                        Clearly he is interested in more money. Your company then needs to negotiate an equitable contract. If his ideas are that good they pay for themselves. If its a money issue negotiate a money over time. He can still have $2000 for his idea, but it will be spread out over 5 months or etc. Maybe you need to offer some kind of percentage 50% of the benefit for 6 months or something.






                        share|improve this answer
























                        • Some professional associations have union-like group contracts, this IP mess could be a part of it. Maybe even part of the statute.

                          – Erkin Alp Güney
                          13 hours ago
















                        2












                        2








                        2







                        Your going to have to offer him a way out without repercussions.




                        We "company" will not peruse and legal actions or hold the past
                        against you. ...etc



                        We wish to negotiate a higher level of patent applications of the
                        same or better quality as previously demonstrated. Contact "name" to
                        pursue this matter.



                        signed all relevant managers/people




                        Then he can re-introduce whatever ideas he had as brand new ideas and both parties can again benefit.



                        Clearly he is interested in more money. Your company then needs to negotiate an equitable contract. If his ideas are that good they pay for themselves. If its a money issue negotiate a money over time. He can still have $2000 for his idea, but it will be spread out over 5 months or etc. Maybe you need to offer some kind of percentage 50% of the benefit for 6 months or something.






                        share|improve this answer













                        Your going to have to offer him a way out without repercussions.




                        We "company" will not peruse and legal actions or hold the past
                        against you. ...etc



                        We wish to negotiate a higher level of patent applications of the
                        same or better quality as previously demonstrated. Contact "name" to
                        pursue this matter.



                        signed all relevant managers/people




                        Then he can re-introduce whatever ideas he had as brand new ideas and both parties can again benefit.



                        Clearly he is interested in more money. Your company then needs to negotiate an equitable contract. If his ideas are that good they pay for themselves. If its a money issue negotiate a money over time. He can still have $2000 for his idea, but it will be spread out over 5 months or etc. Maybe you need to offer some kind of percentage 50% of the benefit for 6 months or something.







                        share|improve this answer












                        share|improve this answer



                        share|improve this answer










                        answered 13 hours ago









                        cybernardcybernard

                        63228




                        63228













                        • Some professional associations have union-like group contracts, this IP mess could be a part of it. Maybe even part of the statute.

                          – Erkin Alp Güney
                          13 hours ago





















                        • Some professional associations have union-like group contracts, this IP mess could be a part of it. Maybe even part of the statute.

                          – Erkin Alp Güney
                          13 hours ago



















                        Some professional associations have union-like group contracts, this IP mess could be a part of it. Maybe even part of the statute.

                        – Erkin Alp Güney
                        13 hours ago







                        Some professional associations have union-like group contracts, this IP mess could be a part of it. Maybe even part of the statute.

                        – Erkin Alp Güney
                        13 hours ago













                        1














                        If you are genuinely interested in restoring your engineer's commitment to the company, and vice versa, offering him a stake in the company seems like at least an avenue to explore. I'm sure you don't have the authorization to proceed with this on your own, but perhaps you could propose something along these lines to upper management.



                        Forget old grudges. Offer this as a "no strings attached" other than perhaps a commitment to stay with the company for another 6-12 months.



                        The immediate value of these shares can by no means be seen as adequate compensation. Let's say you can offer him $10k worth of shares -- and this would probably be quite a lot more than you can actually offer him. The value over time might optimistically double or triple if the company is successful, and on top, there are some scraps from dividends. Do the math and see if you can find a valuation which makes sense to offer him.



                        An important caveat is that you are probably not allowed to just give him a bunch of company shares. An arrangement where some of the current owners pitch in and agree to sell to him, and him alone, at a discounted price might work, though he will probably have to pay a sum which is larger than you would like (otherwise it will be seen as tax evasion and/or illegal for other reasons in many jurisdictions).



                        Options used to be another popular mechanism -- reserve a bunch of shares at today's price, and offer them to him for that price in something like 2-5 years if he is still at the company. This is a bet on rising stock prices, which of course doesn't make a lot of sense if your company isn't publicly traded.



                        I'm no expert on this, but I hope you get the idea -- offering him a slice of the success he is hopefully helping to build is a way to attach him to the company and align his attitude with the company's goals, and communicates that you appreciate his contributions, even though the company is (apparently) no longer able to maintain the previous compensation level.






                        share|improve this answer



















                        • 7





                          As the engineer made at least 100k through patents the last two years, a one-time bonus of 10k is a drop in the bucket.

                          – Alexander
                          16 hours ago











                        • Yeah, ideally you would like to be able to offer more, but if you can project a long-time value of $200k for something which is nominally worth $10k today, you might be able to convince him to accept the offer.

                          – tripleee
                          16 hours ago











                        • @tripleee, it would have to be a very successful company to change $10k to $200k, or it would take a very long time. Either way, the whole idea of promising him a set number of shares some time down the road might not be very enticing to a successful and talented engineer. My company does this, and I don't know if it really stops anyone from leaving. Money right now is more useful to most people than some promised money later on.

                          – Catsunami
                          9 hours ago











                        • Yeah; frankly I'm pessimistic - not least because upper management has clearly shown that they are determined to be A+ sholes about this. But perhaps this idea could be part of a package which is enough to make things almost right for our engineer friend. Bonus plus raise plus shares plus time to work on "solving" the problem he apparently already solved? I still woudn't take it if upper management wants the company to be doomed (while probably still treating themselves to a week in Bahamas and shopping in Paris).

                          – tripleee
                          8 hours ago


















                        1














                        If you are genuinely interested in restoring your engineer's commitment to the company, and vice versa, offering him a stake in the company seems like at least an avenue to explore. I'm sure you don't have the authorization to proceed with this on your own, but perhaps you could propose something along these lines to upper management.



                        Forget old grudges. Offer this as a "no strings attached" other than perhaps a commitment to stay with the company for another 6-12 months.



                        The immediate value of these shares can by no means be seen as adequate compensation. Let's say you can offer him $10k worth of shares -- and this would probably be quite a lot more than you can actually offer him. The value over time might optimistically double or triple if the company is successful, and on top, there are some scraps from dividends. Do the math and see if you can find a valuation which makes sense to offer him.



                        An important caveat is that you are probably not allowed to just give him a bunch of company shares. An arrangement where some of the current owners pitch in and agree to sell to him, and him alone, at a discounted price might work, though he will probably have to pay a sum which is larger than you would like (otherwise it will be seen as tax evasion and/or illegal for other reasons in many jurisdictions).



                        Options used to be another popular mechanism -- reserve a bunch of shares at today's price, and offer them to him for that price in something like 2-5 years if he is still at the company. This is a bet on rising stock prices, which of course doesn't make a lot of sense if your company isn't publicly traded.



                        I'm no expert on this, but I hope you get the idea -- offering him a slice of the success he is hopefully helping to build is a way to attach him to the company and align his attitude with the company's goals, and communicates that you appreciate his contributions, even though the company is (apparently) no longer able to maintain the previous compensation level.






                        share|improve this answer



















                        • 7





                          As the engineer made at least 100k through patents the last two years, a one-time bonus of 10k is a drop in the bucket.

                          – Alexander
                          16 hours ago











                        • Yeah, ideally you would like to be able to offer more, but if you can project a long-time value of $200k for something which is nominally worth $10k today, you might be able to convince him to accept the offer.

                          – tripleee
                          16 hours ago











                        • @tripleee, it would have to be a very successful company to change $10k to $200k, or it would take a very long time. Either way, the whole idea of promising him a set number of shares some time down the road might not be very enticing to a successful and talented engineer. My company does this, and I don't know if it really stops anyone from leaving. Money right now is more useful to most people than some promised money later on.

                          – Catsunami
                          9 hours ago











                        • Yeah; frankly I'm pessimistic - not least because upper management has clearly shown that they are determined to be A+ sholes about this. But perhaps this idea could be part of a package which is enough to make things almost right for our engineer friend. Bonus plus raise plus shares plus time to work on "solving" the problem he apparently already solved? I still woudn't take it if upper management wants the company to be doomed (while probably still treating themselves to a week in Bahamas and shopping in Paris).

                          – tripleee
                          8 hours ago
















                        1












                        1








                        1







                        If you are genuinely interested in restoring your engineer's commitment to the company, and vice versa, offering him a stake in the company seems like at least an avenue to explore. I'm sure you don't have the authorization to proceed with this on your own, but perhaps you could propose something along these lines to upper management.



                        Forget old grudges. Offer this as a "no strings attached" other than perhaps a commitment to stay with the company for another 6-12 months.



                        The immediate value of these shares can by no means be seen as adequate compensation. Let's say you can offer him $10k worth of shares -- and this would probably be quite a lot more than you can actually offer him. The value over time might optimistically double or triple if the company is successful, and on top, there are some scraps from dividends. Do the math and see if you can find a valuation which makes sense to offer him.



                        An important caveat is that you are probably not allowed to just give him a bunch of company shares. An arrangement where some of the current owners pitch in and agree to sell to him, and him alone, at a discounted price might work, though he will probably have to pay a sum which is larger than you would like (otherwise it will be seen as tax evasion and/or illegal for other reasons in many jurisdictions).



                        Options used to be another popular mechanism -- reserve a bunch of shares at today's price, and offer them to him for that price in something like 2-5 years if he is still at the company. This is a bet on rising stock prices, which of course doesn't make a lot of sense if your company isn't publicly traded.



                        I'm no expert on this, but I hope you get the idea -- offering him a slice of the success he is hopefully helping to build is a way to attach him to the company and align his attitude with the company's goals, and communicates that you appreciate his contributions, even though the company is (apparently) no longer able to maintain the previous compensation level.






                        share|improve this answer













                        If you are genuinely interested in restoring your engineer's commitment to the company, and vice versa, offering him a stake in the company seems like at least an avenue to explore. I'm sure you don't have the authorization to proceed with this on your own, but perhaps you could propose something along these lines to upper management.



                        Forget old grudges. Offer this as a "no strings attached" other than perhaps a commitment to stay with the company for another 6-12 months.



                        The immediate value of these shares can by no means be seen as adequate compensation. Let's say you can offer him $10k worth of shares -- and this would probably be quite a lot more than you can actually offer him. The value over time might optimistically double or triple if the company is successful, and on top, there are some scraps from dividends. Do the math and see if you can find a valuation which makes sense to offer him.



                        An important caveat is that you are probably not allowed to just give him a bunch of company shares. An arrangement where some of the current owners pitch in and agree to sell to him, and him alone, at a discounted price might work, though he will probably have to pay a sum which is larger than you would like (otherwise it will be seen as tax evasion and/or illegal for other reasons in many jurisdictions).



                        Options used to be another popular mechanism -- reserve a bunch of shares at today's price, and offer them to him for that price in something like 2-5 years if he is still at the company. This is a bet on rising stock prices, which of course doesn't make a lot of sense if your company isn't publicly traded.



                        I'm no expert on this, but I hope you get the idea -- offering him a slice of the success he is hopefully helping to build is a way to attach him to the company and align his attitude with the company's goals, and communicates that you appreciate his contributions, even though the company is (apparently) no longer able to maintain the previous compensation level.







                        share|improve this answer












                        share|improve this answer



                        share|improve this answer










                        answered 18 hours ago









                        tripleeetripleee

                        16649




                        16649








                        • 7





                          As the engineer made at least 100k through patents the last two years, a one-time bonus of 10k is a drop in the bucket.

                          – Alexander
                          16 hours ago











                        • Yeah, ideally you would like to be able to offer more, but if you can project a long-time value of $200k for something which is nominally worth $10k today, you might be able to convince him to accept the offer.

                          – tripleee
                          16 hours ago











                        • @tripleee, it would have to be a very successful company to change $10k to $200k, or it would take a very long time. Either way, the whole idea of promising him a set number of shares some time down the road might not be very enticing to a successful and talented engineer. My company does this, and I don't know if it really stops anyone from leaving. Money right now is more useful to most people than some promised money later on.

                          – Catsunami
                          9 hours ago











                        • Yeah; frankly I'm pessimistic - not least because upper management has clearly shown that they are determined to be A+ sholes about this. But perhaps this idea could be part of a package which is enough to make things almost right for our engineer friend. Bonus plus raise plus shares plus time to work on "solving" the problem he apparently already solved? I still woudn't take it if upper management wants the company to be doomed (while probably still treating themselves to a week in Bahamas and shopping in Paris).

                          – tripleee
                          8 hours ago
















                        • 7





                          As the engineer made at least 100k through patents the last two years, a one-time bonus of 10k is a drop in the bucket.

                          – Alexander
                          16 hours ago











                        • Yeah, ideally you would like to be able to offer more, but if you can project a long-time value of $200k for something which is nominally worth $10k today, you might be able to convince him to accept the offer.

                          – tripleee
                          16 hours ago











                        • @tripleee, it would have to be a very successful company to change $10k to $200k, or it would take a very long time. Either way, the whole idea of promising him a set number of shares some time down the road might not be very enticing to a successful and talented engineer. My company does this, and I don't know if it really stops anyone from leaving. Money right now is more useful to most people than some promised money later on.

                          – Catsunami
                          9 hours ago











                        • Yeah; frankly I'm pessimistic - not least because upper management has clearly shown that they are determined to be A+ sholes about this. But perhaps this idea could be part of a package which is enough to make things almost right for our engineer friend. Bonus plus raise plus shares plus time to work on "solving" the problem he apparently already solved? I still woudn't take it if upper management wants the company to be doomed (while probably still treating themselves to a week in Bahamas and shopping in Paris).

                          – tripleee
                          8 hours ago










                        7




                        7





                        As the engineer made at least 100k through patents the last two years, a one-time bonus of 10k is a drop in the bucket.

                        – Alexander
                        16 hours ago





                        As the engineer made at least 100k through patents the last two years, a one-time bonus of 10k is a drop in the bucket.

                        – Alexander
                        16 hours ago













                        Yeah, ideally you would like to be able to offer more, but if you can project a long-time value of $200k for something which is nominally worth $10k today, you might be able to convince him to accept the offer.

                        – tripleee
                        16 hours ago





                        Yeah, ideally you would like to be able to offer more, but if you can project a long-time value of $200k for something which is nominally worth $10k today, you might be able to convince him to accept the offer.

                        – tripleee
                        16 hours ago













                        @tripleee, it would have to be a very successful company to change $10k to $200k, or it would take a very long time. Either way, the whole idea of promising him a set number of shares some time down the road might not be very enticing to a successful and talented engineer. My company does this, and I don't know if it really stops anyone from leaving. Money right now is more useful to most people than some promised money later on.

                        – Catsunami
                        9 hours ago





                        @tripleee, it would have to be a very successful company to change $10k to $200k, or it would take a very long time. Either way, the whole idea of promising him a set number of shares some time down the road might not be very enticing to a successful and talented engineer. My company does this, and I don't know if it really stops anyone from leaving. Money right now is more useful to most people than some promised money later on.

                        – Catsunami
                        9 hours ago













                        Yeah; frankly I'm pessimistic - not least because upper management has clearly shown that they are determined to be A+ sholes about this. But perhaps this idea could be part of a package which is enough to make things almost right for our engineer friend. Bonus plus raise plus shares plus time to work on "solving" the problem he apparently already solved? I still woudn't take it if upper management wants the company to be doomed (while probably still treating themselves to a week in Bahamas and shopping in Paris).

                        – tripleee
                        8 hours ago







                        Yeah; frankly I'm pessimistic - not least because upper management has clearly shown that they are determined to be A+ sholes about this. But perhaps this idea could be part of a package which is enough to make things almost right for our engineer friend. Bonus plus raise plus shares plus time to work on "solving" the problem he apparently already solved? I still woudn't take it if upper management wants the company to be doomed (while probably still treating themselves to a week in Bahamas and shopping in Paris).

                        – tripleee
                        8 hours ago













                        0














                        Its a perfect example of how a company who gets greedy can run it into the ground. Fire whoever came up with the idea of reducing the patent fees and sincerely apologize to this talented engineer and pray he accepts your apology. Or prepare to have your competition (with your engineer in their team) eventually overtake your business.






                        share|improve this answer




























                          0














                          Its a perfect example of how a company who gets greedy can run it into the ground. Fire whoever came up with the idea of reducing the patent fees and sincerely apologize to this talented engineer and pray he accepts your apology. Or prepare to have your competition (with your engineer in their team) eventually overtake your business.






                          share|improve this answer


























                            0












                            0








                            0







                            Its a perfect example of how a company who gets greedy can run it into the ground. Fire whoever came up with the idea of reducing the patent fees and sincerely apologize to this talented engineer and pray he accepts your apology. Or prepare to have your competition (with your engineer in their team) eventually overtake your business.






                            share|improve this answer













                            Its a perfect example of how a company who gets greedy can run it into the ground. Fire whoever came up with the idea of reducing the patent fees and sincerely apologize to this talented engineer and pray he accepts your apology. Or prepare to have your competition (with your engineer in their team) eventually overtake your business.







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 5 hours ago









                            solarflaresolarflare

                            9,35742449




                            9,35742449























                                -7














                                He makes the bux. You pass the buck. Looking here for a solution to save your job (or at least look good so you can get a promotion)? Offer to take a pay cut. Or better yet tell senior management to take a pay cut to get the funds to pay this guy. Wait till you find out how expensive it is to do 'design by committee'.






                                share|improve this answer










                                New contributor




                                aquagremlin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                Check out our Code of Conduct.










                                We're looking for long answers that provide some explanation and context. Don't just give a one-line answer; explain why your answer is right, ideally with citations. Answers that don't include explanations may be removed.










                                • 5





                                  this seems to suggest that the way to look good and get a promotion is to "tell senior management to take a pay cut to get the funds to pay this guy" - sorry, I totally can not understand this reasoning. Please consider editing to help readers see how this is supposed to work. See also: Back It Up and Don't Repeat Others

                                  – gnat
                                  19 hours ago
















                                -7














                                He makes the bux. You pass the buck. Looking here for a solution to save your job (or at least look good so you can get a promotion)? Offer to take a pay cut. Or better yet tell senior management to take a pay cut to get the funds to pay this guy. Wait till you find out how expensive it is to do 'design by committee'.






                                share|improve this answer










                                New contributor




                                aquagremlin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                Check out our Code of Conduct.










                                We're looking for long answers that provide some explanation and context. Don't just give a one-line answer; explain why your answer is right, ideally with citations. Answers that don't include explanations may be removed.










                                • 5





                                  this seems to suggest that the way to look good and get a promotion is to "tell senior management to take a pay cut to get the funds to pay this guy" - sorry, I totally can not understand this reasoning. Please consider editing to help readers see how this is supposed to work. See also: Back It Up and Don't Repeat Others

                                  – gnat
                                  19 hours ago














                                -7












                                -7








                                -7







                                He makes the bux. You pass the buck. Looking here for a solution to save your job (or at least look good so you can get a promotion)? Offer to take a pay cut. Or better yet tell senior management to take a pay cut to get the funds to pay this guy. Wait till you find out how expensive it is to do 'design by committee'.






                                share|improve this answer










                                New contributor




                                aquagremlin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                Check out our Code of Conduct.










                                He makes the bux. You pass the buck. Looking here for a solution to save your job (or at least look good so you can get a promotion)? Offer to take a pay cut. Or better yet tell senior management to take a pay cut to get the funds to pay this guy. Wait till you find out how expensive it is to do 'design by committee'.







                                share|improve this answer










                                New contributor




                                aquagremlin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                share|improve this answer



                                share|improve this answer








                                edited 20 hours ago









                                Snow

                                63.6k52209254




                                63.6k52209254






                                New contributor




                                aquagremlin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                answered yesterday









                                aquagremlinaquagremlin

                                1192




                                1192




                                New contributor




                                aquagremlin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                Check out our Code of Conduct.





                                New contributor





                                aquagremlin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                aquagremlin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                Check out our Code of Conduct.



                                We're looking for long answers that provide some explanation and context. Don't just give a one-line answer; explain why your answer is right, ideally with citations. Answers that don't include explanations may be removed.




                                We're looking for long answers that provide some explanation and context. Don't just give a one-line answer; explain why your answer is right, ideally with citations. Answers that don't include explanations may be removed.









                                • 5





                                  this seems to suggest that the way to look good and get a promotion is to "tell senior management to take a pay cut to get the funds to pay this guy" - sorry, I totally can not understand this reasoning. Please consider editing to help readers see how this is supposed to work. See also: Back It Up and Don't Repeat Others

                                  – gnat
                                  19 hours ago














                                • 5





                                  this seems to suggest that the way to look good and get a promotion is to "tell senior management to take a pay cut to get the funds to pay this guy" - sorry, I totally can not understand this reasoning. Please consider editing to help readers see how this is supposed to work. See also: Back It Up and Don't Repeat Others

                                  – gnat
                                  19 hours ago








                                5




                                5





                                this seems to suggest that the way to look good and get a promotion is to "tell senior management to take a pay cut to get the funds to pay this guy" - sorry, I totally can not understand this reasoning. Please consider editing to help readers see how this is supposed to work. See also: Back It Up and Don't Repeat Others

                                – gnat
                                19 hours ago





                                this seems to suggest that the way to look good and get a promotion is to "tell senior management to take a pay cut to get the funds to pay this guy" - sorry, I totally can not understand this reasoning. Please consider editing to help readers see how this is supposed to work. See also: Back It Up and Don't Repeat Others

                                – gnat
                                19 hours ago





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