Could the E-bike drivetrain wear down till needing replacement after 400 km?












3















The drivetrain (chain? gears?) of my E-bike started to make loud clicking sounds, with the impression that the chain is skipping over teeth. The gear switching itself still works well.



I have tried to regulate the rear gear mechanism by adjusting the position screws but failed to make any improvement. The chain seems positioned properly.



I started to think, maybe some parts would require replacement. Could this possibly be for the bike that has been traveled only 400 km so far? It was rather cheap for E-bike from the other side, and on flat terrain it was mostly used on the same (fastest) gear.



Could some parts be already worn if low end? If so, which parts are likely to be?










share|improve this question


















  • 4





    At the end of the day, the answer to "My new bike doesn't work properly" is to take it back to the shop and get them to fix it. A good bike shop should also be offering a free service after, say a month, to make sure everything's adjusted properly. Of course, it's always educational to find out how you'd diagnose and fix it yourself.

    – David Richerby
    2 days ago






  • 2





    An E-Bike should definitely last more than 400km, unless it is a cheap plastic toy for indoor use by children After all, it's a motorcycle, just not with a internal combustion engine but an electric one. This is in contrast to a Pedelec ("Pedal Electric Cycle") where the user is intended to propel the bike with the pedals, with some assistance from an electric motor. A Pedelect is built quite similar to a regular bike - and therefore shares the same weak points. Specifically, the bearings. A failong bottom bracket (to which the crankset ("the pedals") is connected) emits loud clicking noises.

    – Klaws
    yesterday











  • @Klaws Most things that people call "e-bikes" are what you call a "pedelec". But what difference does it make? Any e-bike, pedelec or ordinary bicycle should last more than 400km.

    – David Richerby
    7 hours ago
















3















The drivetrain (chain? gears?) of my E-bike started to make loud clicking sounds, with the impression that the chain is skipping over teeth. The gear switching itself still works well.



I have tried to regulate the rear gear mechanism by adjusting the position screws but failed to make any improvement. The chain seems positioned properly.



I started to think, maybe some parts would require replacement. Could this possibly be for the bike that has been traveled only 400 km so far? It was rather cheap for E-bike from the other side, and on flat terrain it was mostly used on the same (fastest) gear.



Could some parts be already worn if low end? If so, which parts are likely to be?










share|improve this question


















  • 4





    At the end of the day, the answer to "My new bike doesn't work properly" is to take it back to the shop and get them to fix it. A good bike shop should also be offering a free service after, say a month, to make sure everything's adjusted properly. Of course, it's always educational to find out how you'd diagnose and fix it yourself.

    – David Richerby
    2 days ago






  • 2





    An E-Bike should definitely last more than 400km, unless it is a cheap plastic toy for indoor use by children After all, it's a motorcycle, just not with a internal combustion engine but an electric one. This is in contrast to a Pedelec ("Pedal Electric Cycle") where the user is intended to propel the bike with the pedals, with some assistance from an electric motor. A Pedelect is built quite similar to a regular bike - and therefore shares the same weak points. Specifically, the bearings. A failong bottom bracket (to which the crankset ("the pedals") is connected) emits loud clicking noises.

    – Klaws
    yesterday











  • @Klaws Most things that people call "e-bikes" are what you call a "pedelec". But what difference does it make? Any e-bike, pedelec or ordinary bicycle should last more than 400km.

    – David Richerby
    7 hours ago














3












3








3








The drivetrain (chain? gears?) of my E-bike started to make loud clicking sounds, with the impression that the chain is skipping over teeth. The gear switching itself still works well.



I have tried to regulate the rear gear mechanism by adjusting the position screws but failed to make any improvement. The chain seems positioned properly.



I started to think, maybe some parts would require replacement. Could this possibly be for the bike that has been traveled only 400 km so far? It was rather cheap for E-bike from the other side, and on flat terrain it was mostly used on the same (fastest) gear.



Could some parts be already worn if low end? If so, which parts are likely to be?










share|improve this question














The drivetrain (chain? gears?) of my E-bike started to make loud clicking sounds, with the impression that the chain is skipping over teeth. The gear switching itself still works well.



I have tried to regulate the rear gear mechanism by adjusting the position screws but failed to make any improvement. The chain seems positioned properly.



I started to think, maybe some parts would require replacement. Could this possibly be for the bike that has been traveled only 400 km so far? It was rather cheap for E-bike from the other side, and on flat terrain it was mostly used on the same (fastest) gear.



Could some parts be already worn if low end? If so, which parts are likely to be?







maintenance chain electric-bike skipping






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 2 days ago









h22h22

27019




27019








  • 4





    At the end of the day, the answer to "My new bike doesn't work properly" is to take it back to the shop and get them to fix it. A good bike shop should also be offering a free service after, say a month, to make sure everything's adjusted properly. Of course, it's always educational to find out how you'd diagnose and fix it yourself.

    – David Richerby
    2 days ago






  • 2





    An E-Bike should definitely last more than 400km, unless it is a cheap plastic toy for indoor use by children After all, it's a motorcycle, just not with a internal combustion engine but an electric one. This is in contrast to a Pedelec ("Pedal Electric Cycle") where the user is intended to propel the bike with the pedals, with some assistance from an electric motor. A Pedelect is built quite similar to a regular bike - and therefore shares the same weak points. Specifically, the bearings. A failong bottom bracket (to which the crankset ("the pedals") is connected) emits loud clicking noises.

    – Klaws
    yesterday











  • @Klaws Most things that people call "e-bikes" are what you call a "pedelec". But what difference does it make? Any e-bike, pedelec or ordinary bicycle should last more than 400km.

    – David Richerby
    7 hours ago














  • 4





    At the end of the day, the answer to "My new bike doesn't work properly" is to take it back to the shop and get them to fix it. A good bike shop should also be offering a free service after, say a month, to make sure everything's adjusted properly. Of course, it's always educational to find out how you'd diagnose and fix it yourself.

    – David Richerby
    2 days ago






  • 2





    An E-Bike should definitely last more than 400km, unless it is a cheap plastic toy for indoor use by children After all, it's a motorcycle, just not with a internal combustion engine but an electric one. This is in contrast to a Pedelec ("Pedal Electric Cycle") where the user is intended to propel the bike with the pedals, with some assistance from an electric motor. A Pedelect is built quite similar to a regular bike - and therefore shares the same weak points. Specifically, the bearings. A failong bottom bracket (to which the crankset ("the pedals") is connected) emits loud clicking noises.

    – Klaws
    yesterday











  • @Klaws Most things that people call "e-bikes" are what you call a "pedelec". But what difference does it make? Any e-bike, pedelec or ordinary bicycle should last more than 400km.

    – David Richerby
    7 hours ago








4




4





At the end of the day, the answer to "My new bike doesn't work properly" is to take it back to the shop and get them to fix it. A good bike shop should also be offering a free service after, say a month, to make sure everything's adjusted properly. Of course, it's always educational to find out how you'd diagnose and fix it yourself.

– David Richerby
2 days ago





At the end of the day, the answer to "My new bike doesn't work properly" is to take it back to the shop and get them to fix it. A good bike shop should also be offering a free service after, say a month, to make sure everything's adjusted properly. Of course, it's always educational to find out how you'd diagnose and fix it yourself.

– David Richerby
2 days ago




2




2





An E-Bike should definitely last more than 400km, unless it is a cheap plastic toy for indoor use by children After all, it's a motorcycle, just not with a internal combustion engine but an electric one. This is in contrast to a Pedelec ("Pedal Electric Cycle") where the user is intended to propel the bike with the pedals, with some assistance from an electric motor. A Pedelect is built quite similar to a regular bike - and therefore shares the same weak points. Specifically, the bearings. A failong bottom bracket (to which the crankset ("the pedals") is connected) emits loud clicking noises.

– Klaws
yesterday





An E-Bike should definitely last more than 400km, unless it is a cheap plastic toy for indoor use by children After all, it's a motorcycle, just not with a internal combustion engine but an electric one. This is in contrast to a Pedelec ("Pedal Electric Cycle") where the user is intended to propel the bike with the pedals, with some assistance from an electric motor. A Pedelect is built quite similar to a regular bike - and therefore shares the same weak points. Specifically, the bearings. A failong bottom bracket (to which the crankset ("the pedals") is connected) emits loud clicking noises.

– Klaws
yesterday













@Klaws Most things that people call "e-bikes" are what you call a "pedelec". But what difference does it make? Any e-bike, pedelec or ordinary bicycle should last more than 400km.

– David Richerby
7 hours ago





@Klaws Most things that people call "e-bikes" are what you call a "pedelec". But what difference does it make? Any e-bike, pedelec or ordinary bicycle should last more than 400km.

– David Richerby
7 hours ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















9














Yes it can and I've seen it before, but the problems you describe sound like issues which could be fixed with a simple gear tune rather than being caused by worn-out components.



The only one that I've seen wearing out that quickly could largely be blamed on the riding style of its owner. He was a heavy rider and reasonably strong, so he was someone who would put more stress on any drivetrain. He also had a tendency to ride with the motor on full assist at all times to allow him to get over any hills without having to shift out of the 11 tooth cog at the rear. The load that he was putting through the drivetrain combined with the tiny cog taking all of the stress meant that components wore out very very quickly.



He came in for new chains and cassettes (couldn't just buy a new 11 tooth unfortunately) a few times before I found a cheaper, more permanent solution for him. We replaced the chainring with a much bigger one and put on a cassette with a 13 tooth as the smallest cog.






share|improve this answer































    9















    I have tried to regulate the rear gear mechanism by adjusting the position screws but failed to make any improvement.




    That's almost never the adjustment that the rear derailleur needs. Those screws are called the limit screws, and they set how far in and out the derailleur can move. All they do is stop the derailleur from moving the chain all the way off the cassette on either side. There's basically nothing that causes those screws to move on their own so, assuming they were set correctly when the bike was built, they should almost never need to be touched. The symptoms that do mean they need adjustment is that either the chain is falling off the top or bottom of the cassette (derailleur able to move too far) or that gear changing is just fine, except that you can't change into the smallest or biggest cog (derailleur not able to move far enough).



    The correct adjustment is to use the barrel adjuster to get the correct cable tension. That very often is needed on new bikes, because the cables tend to stretch a bit after they're installed. Argenti Apparatus has already posted a video so I'll not go into more detail than that.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 1





      What he said. New bike need readjustment on a regular basis. Even high end race bike need it. It certainly shouldn't be replaced after only 400km

      – ker2x
      2 days ago



















    8














    Even for a low end eBike using 400km will not wear out drivetrain parts.



    If the chain was slipping over the sprockets, you would feel the cranks and pedals slipping forwards. This tends to be sporadic and makes a loud clang or crunch.



    If you are hearing a periodic ticking, It's likely the rear derailleur indexing needs adjustment. From your post it sounds like you adjusted the limit screws rather then the indexing barrel adjuster.



    Try following a derailleur adjustment procedure and see if that fixes the problem.











    share|improve this answer



















    • 2





      I have worn out a singlespeed chain in 800 km so I wouldn't completely rule it out.

      – ojs
      2 days ago



















    -3














    Take the chain off and thread it through the rear derailleur properly.



    It happened to me - there is a small guard near the top cog and the bottom of the rearderailleur, I threaded my chain on the outside of it (easilly done) chain slipped as described.






    share|improve this answer










    New contributor




    Creesha is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.
















    • 1





      What makes you think this is the problem? If there was a problem with the way the chain has been put through the derailleur, the problem would have existed from day one, not started later.

      – David Richerby
      7 hours ago











    Your Answer








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    4 Answers
    4






    active

    oldest

    votes








    4 Answers
    4






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    9














    Yes it can and I've seen it before, but the problems you describe sound like issues which could be fixed with a simple gear tune rather than being caused by worn-out components.



    The only one that I've seen wearing out that quickly could largely be blamed on the riding style of its owner. He was a heavy rider and reasonably strong, so he was someone who would put more stress on any drivetrain. He also had a tendency to ride with the motor on full assist at all times to allow him to get over any hills without having to shift out of the 11 tooth cog at the rear. The load that he was putting through the drivetrain combined with the tiny cog taking all of the stress meant that components wore out very very quickly.



    He came in for new chains and cassettes (couldn't just buy a new 11 tooth unfortunately) a few times before I found a cheaper, more permanent solution for him. We replaced the chainring with a much bigger one and put on a cassette with a 13 tooth as the smallest cog.






    share|improve this answer




























      9














      Yes it can and I've seen it before, but the problems you describe sound like issues which could be fixed with a simple gear tune rather than being caused by worn-out components.



      The only one that I've seen wearing out that quickly could largely be blamed on the riding style of its owner. He was a heavy rider and reasonably strong, so he was someone who would put more stress on any drivetrain. He also had a tendency to ride with the motor on full assist at all times to allow him to get over any hills without having to shift out of the 11 tooth cog at the rear. The load that he was putting through the drivetrain combined with the tiny cog taking all of the stress meant that components wore out very very quickly.



      He came in for new chains and cassettes (couldn't just buy a new 11 tooth unfortunately) a few times before I found a cheaper, more permanent solution for him. We replaced the chainring with a much bigger one and put on a cassette with a 13 tooth as the smallest cog.






      share|improve this answer


























        9












        9








        9







        Yes it can and I've seen it before, but the problems you describe sound like issues which could be fixed with a simple gear tune rather than being caused by worn-out components.



        The only one that I've seen wearing out that quickly could largely be blamed on the riding style of its owner. He was a heavy rider and reasonably strong, so he was someone who would put more stress on any drivetrain. He also had a tendency to ride with the motor on full assist at all times to allow him to get over any hills without having to shift out of the 11 tooth cog at the rear. The load that he was putting through the drivetrain combined with the tiny cog taking all of the stress meant that components wore out very very quickly.



        He came in for new chains and cassettes (couldn't just buy a new 11 tooth unfortunately) a few times before I found a cheaper, more permanent solution for him. We replaced the chainring with a much bigger one and put on a cassette with a 13 tooth as the smallest cog.






        share|improve this answer













        Yes it can and I've seen it before, but the problems you describe sound like issues which could be fixed with a simple gear tune rather than being caused by worn-out components.



        The only one that I've seen wearing out that quickly could largely be blamed on the riding style of its owner. He was a heavy rider and reasonably strong, so he was someone who would put more stress on any drivetrain. He also had a tendency to ride with the motor on full assist at all times to allow him to get over any hills without having to shift out of the 11 tooth cog at the rear. The load that he was putting through the drivetrain combined with the tiny cog taking all of the stress meant that components wore out very very quickly.



        He came in for new chains and cassettes (couldn't just buy a new 11 tooth unfortunately) a few times before I found a cheaper, more permanent solution for him. We replaced the chainring with a much bigger one and put on a cassette with a 13 tooth as the smallest cog.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered yesterday









        Carbon side upCarbon side up

        2,125316




        2,125316























            9















            I have tried to regulate the rear gear mechanism by adjusting the position screws but failed to make any improvement.




            That's almost never the adjustment that the rear derailleur needs. Those screws are called the limit screws, and they set how far in and out the derailleur can move. All they do is stop the derailleur from moving the chain all the way off the cassette on either side. There's basically nothing that causes those screws to move on their own so, assuming they were set correctly when the bike was built, they should almost never need to be touched. The symptoms that do mean they need adjustment is that either the chain is falling off the top or bottom of the cassette (derailleur able to move too far) or that gear changing is just fine, except that you can't change into the smallest or biggest cog (derailleur not able to move far enough).



            The correct adjustment is to use the barrel adjuster to get the correct cable tension. That very often is needed on new bikes, because the cables tend to stretch a bit after they're installed. Argenti Apparatus has already posted a video so I'll not go into more detail than that.






            share|improve this answer



















            • 1





              What he said. New bike need readjustment on a regular basis. Even high end race bike need it. It certainly shouldn't be replaced after only 400km

              – ker2x
              2 days ago
















            9















            I have tried to regulate the rear gear mechanism by adjusting the position screws but failed to make any improvement.




            That's almost never the adjustment that the rear derailleur needs. Those screws are called the limit screws, and they set how far in and out the derailleur can move. All they do is stop the derailleur from moving the chain all the way off the cassette on either side. There's basically nothing that causes those screws to move on their own so, assuming they were set correctly when the bike was built, they should almost never need to be touched. The symptoms that do mean they need adjustment is that either the chain is falling off the top or bottom of the cassette (derailleur able to move too far) or that gear changing is just fine, except that you can't change into the smallest or biggest cog (derailleur not able to move far enough).



            The correct adjustment is to use the barrel adjuster to get the correct cable tension. That very often is needed on new bikes, because the cables tend to stretch a bit after they're installed. Argenti Apparatus has already posted a video so I'll not go into more detail than that.






            share|improve this answer



















            • 1





              What he said. New bike need readjustment on a regular basis. Even high end race bike need it. It certainly shouldn't be replaced after only 400km

              – ker2x
              2 days ago














            9












            9








            9








            I have tried to regulate the rear gear mechanism by adjusting the position screws but failed to make any improvement.




            That's almost never the adjustment that the rear derailleur needs. Those screws are called the limit screws, and they set how far in and out the derailleur can move. All they do is stop the derailleur from moving the chain all the way off the cassette on either side. There's basically nothing that causes those screws to move on their own so, assuming they were set correctly when the bike was built, they should almost never need to be touched. The symptoms that do mean they need adjustment is that either the chain is falling off the top or bottom of the cassette (derailleur able to move too far) or that gear changing is just fine, except that you can't change into the smallest or biggest cog (derailleur not able to move far enough).



            The correct adjustment is to use the barrel adjuster to get the correct cable tension. That very often is needed on new bikes, because the cables tend to stretch a bit after they're installed. Argenti Apparatus has already posted a video so I'll not go into more detail than that.






            share|improve this answer














            I have tried to regulate the rear gear mechanism by adjusting the position screws but failed to make any improvement.




            That's almost never the adjustment that the rear derailleur needs. Those screws are called the limit screws, and they set how far in and out the derailleur can move. All they do is stop the derailleur from moving the chain all the way off the cassette on either side. There's basically nothing that causes those screws to move on their own so, assuming they were set correctly when the bike was built, they should almost never need to be touched. The symptoms that do mean they need adjustment is that either the chain is falling off the top or bottom of the cassette (derailleur able to move too far) or that gear changing is just fine, except that you can't change into the smallest or biggest cog (derailleur not able to move far enough).



            The correct adjustment is to use the barrel adjuster to get the correct cable tension. That very often is needed on new bikes, because the cables tend to stretch a bit after they're installed. Argenti Apparatus has already posted a video so I'll not go into more detail than that.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 2 days ago









            David RicherbyDavid Richerby

            12.9k33465




            12.9k33465








            • 1





              What he said. New bike need readjustment on a regular basis. Even high end race bike need it. It certainly shouldn't be replaced after only 400km

              – ker2x
              2 days ago














            • 1





              What he said. New bike need readjustment on a regular basis. Even high end race bike need it. It certainly shouldn't be replaced after only 400km

              – ker2x
              2 days ago








            1




            1





            What he said. New bike need readjustment on a regular basis. Even high end race bike need it. It certainly shouldn't be replaced after only 400km

            – ker2x
            2 days ago





            What he said. New bike need readjustment on a regular basis. Even high end race bike need it. It certainly shouldn't be replaced after only 400km

            – ker2x
            2 days ago











            8














            Even for a low end eBike using 400km will not wear out drivetrain parts.



            If the chain was slipping over the sprockets, you would feel the cranks and pedals slipping forwards. This tends to be sporadic and makes a loud clang or crunch.



            If you are hearing a periodic ticking, It's likely the rear derailleur indexing needs adjustment. From your post it sounds like you adjusted the limit screws rather then the indexing barrel adjuster.



            Try following a derailleur adjustment procedure and see if that fixes the problem.











            share|improve this answer



















            • 2





              I have worn out a singlespeed chain in 800 km so I wouldn't completely rule it out.

              – ojs
              2 days ago
















            8














            Even for a low end eBike using 400km will not wear out drivetrain parts.



            If the chain was slipping over the sprockets, you would feel the cranks and pedals slipping forwards. This tends to be sporadic and makes a loud clang or crunch.



            If you are hearing a periodic ticking, It's likely the rear derailleur indexing needs adjustment. From your post it sounds like you adjusted the limit screws rather then the indexing barrel adjuster.



            Try following a derailleur adjustment procedure and see if that fixes the problem.











            share|improve this answer



















            • 2





              I have worn out a singlespeed chain in 800 km so I wouldn't completely rule it out.

              – ojs
              2 days ago














            8












            8








            8







            Even for a low end eBike using 400km will not wear out drivetrain parts.



            If the chain was slipping over the sprockets, you would feel the cranks and pedals slipping forwards. This tends to be sporadic and makes a loud clang or crunch.



            If you are hearing a periodic ticking, It's likely the rear derailleur indexing needs adjustment. From your post it sounds like you adjusted the limit screws rather then the indexing barrel adjuster.



            Try following a derailleur adjustment procedure and see if that fixes the problem.











            share|improve this answer













            Even for a low end eBike using 400km will not wear out drivetrain parts.



            If the chain was slipping over the sprockets, you would feel the cranks and pedals slipping forwards. This tends to be sporadic and makes a loud clang or crunch.



            If you are hearing a periodic ticking, It's likely the rear derailleur indexing needs adjustment. From your post it sounds like you adjusted the limit screws rather then the indexing barrel adjuster.



            Try following a derailleur adjustment procedure and see if that fixes the problem.




















            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 2 days ago









            Argenti ApparatusArgenti Apparatus

            36.5k23891




            36.5k23891








            • 2





              I have worn out a singlespeed chain in 800 km so I wouldn't completely rule it out.

              – ojs
              2 days ago














            • 2





              I have worn out a singlespeed chain in 800 km so I wouldn't completely rule it out.

              – ojs
              2 days ago








            2




            2





            I have worn out a singlespeed chain in 800 km so I wouldn't completely rule it out.

            – ojs
            2 days ago





            I have worn out a singlespeed chain in 800 km so I wouldn't completely rule it out.

            – ojs
            2 days ago











            -3














            Take the chain off and thread it through the rear derailleur properly.



            It happened to me - there is a small guard near the top cog and the bottom of the rearderailleur, I threaded my chain on the outside of it (easilly done) chain slipped as described.






            share|improve this answer










            New contributor




            Creesha is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.
















            • 1





              What makes you think this is the problem? If there was a problem with the way the chain has been put through the derailleur, the problem would have existed from day one, not started later.

              – David Richerby
              7 hours ago
















            -3














            Take the chain off and thread it through the rear derailleur properly.



            It happened to me - there is a small guard near the top cog and the bottom of the rearderailleur, I threaded my chain on the outside of it (easilly done) chain slipped as described.






            share|improve this answer










            New contributor




            Creesha is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.
















            • 1





              What makes you think this is the problem? If there was a problem with the way the chain has been put through the derailleur, the problem would have existed from day one, not started later.

              – David Richerby
              7 hours ago














            -3












            -3








            -3







            Take the chain off and thread it through the rear derailleur properly.



            It happened to me - there is a small guard near the top cog and the bottom of the rearderailleur, I threaded my chain on the outside of it (easilly done) chain slipped as described.






            share|improve this answer










            New contributor




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            Take the chain off and thread it through the rear derailleur properly.



            It happened to me - there is a small guard near the top cog and the bottom of the rearderailleur, I threaded my chain on the outside of it (easilly done) chain slipped as described.







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            share|improve this answer



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            edited 6 hours ago









            Criggie

            44.8k574151




            44.8k574151






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            answered 7 hours ago









            CreeshaCreesha

            1




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            • 1





              What makes you think this is the problem? If there was a problem with the way the chain has been put through the derailleur, the problem would have existed from day one, not started later.

              – David Richerby
              7 hours ago














            • 1





              What makes you think this is the problem? If there was a problem with the way the chain has been put through the derailleur, the problem would have existed from day one, not started later.

              – David Richerby
              7 hours ago








            1




            1





            What makes you think this is the problem? If there was a problem with the way the chain has been put through the derailleur, the problem would have existed from day one, not started later.

            – David Richerby
            7 hours ago





            What makes you think this is the problem? If there was a problem with the way the chain has been put through the derailleur, the problem would have existed from day one, not started later.

            – David Richerby
            7 hours ago


















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