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Why is “das Weib” grammatically neuter?
Neuter gender for nouns referring to childrenDifference between feminine (“die Röte”) and neuter colors (“das Rote”)Das Genus von »Teil«: der oder das?Why is Mozzarella masculine?Why Mitternacht, not MittnachtIs “Cola” feminine or neuter?Can the noun »Süße« be neuter?»Der Joghurt« vs. »Das Joghurt«Das Genus der Nomina auf -salMasculine, feminine, neuter
The word das Weib, meaning woman, is grammatically neuter. While the gender of nouns is generally unpredictable from their meaning, it is unusual that a word with such an explicitly feminine meaning (can't get more feminine in meaning than "woman"!) would be grammatically neuter.
Is there a simple explanation for this, based on the history / etymology of the word?
I am expecting something comparable to the explanation of why Fräulein is also neuter: because the diminutive suffix -lein always creates neuter words. I expect the explanation for Weib would need to go back much further in history though (the Old English cognate, wif, was also neuter).
Feel free to migrate to Linguistics.SE if it fits better there.
etymology gender history
New contributor
|
show 7 more comments
The word das Weib, meaning woman, is grammatically neuter. While the gender of nouns is generally unpredictable from their meaning, it is unusual that a word with such an explicitly feminine meaning (can't get more feminine in meaning than "woman"!) would be grammatically neuter.
Is there a simple explanation for this, based on the history / etymology of the word?
I am expecting something comparable to the explanation of why Fräulein is also neuter: because the diminutive suffix -lein always creates neuter words. I expect the explanation for Weib would need to go back much further in history though (the Old English cognate, wif, was also neuter).
Feel free to migrate to Linguistics.SE if it fits better there.
etymology gender history
New contributor
1
Also in Dutch: het wijf.
– Rudy Velthuis
10 hours ago
2
I guess, the root problem is your assumption, that substantives representing persons are a special case and handled separately. They are not. Not only are numerous counterexamples like das Mädchen, das Kind, and there are also colliding rules, that diminuitives become neuter as das Männchen.
– guidot
8 hours ago
2
@EndreBoth You confuse gender and sex!
– Björn Friedrich
7 hours ago
4
@Philipp, the question is very reasonable, because in German words denoting male humans or animals are usually male and words denoting females are usually female. Exceptions exist and are interesting and worth investigating, which is what the question does.
– Carsten S
6 hours ago
1
@Philipp Especially when you try to correct others, it is important that you don't spread wildy incorrect misinformation like you do here. Grammatical gender and biological sex is strongly correlated in all Indo-European languages and the grammatical gender system probably originates from differences in biological sex.
– jarnbjo
4 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
The word das Weib, meaning woman, is grammatically neuter. While the gender of nouns is generally unpredictable from their meaning, it is unusual that a word with such an explicitly feminine meaning (can't get more feminine in meaning than "woman"!) would be grammatically neuter.
Is there a simple explanation for this, based on the history / etymology of the word?
I am expecting something comparable to the explanation of why Fräulein is also neuter: because the diminutive suffix -lein always creates neuter words. I expect the explanation for Weib would need to go back much further in history though (the Old English cognate, wif, was also neuter).
Feel free to migrate to Linguistics.SE if it fits better there.
etymology gender history
New contributor
The word das Weib, meaning woman, is grammatically neuter. While the gender of nouns is generally unpredictable from their meaning, it is unusual that a word with such an explicitly feminine meaning (can't get more feminine in meaning than "woman"!) would be grammatically neuter.
Is there a simple explanation for this, based on the history / etymology of the word?
I am expecting something comparable to the explanation of why Fräulein is also neuter: because the diminutive suffix -lein always creates neuter words. I expect the explanation for Weib would need to go back much further in history though (the Old English cognate, wif, was also neuter).
Feel free to migrate to Linguistics.SE if it fits better there.
etymology gender history
etymology gender history
New contributor
New contributor
New contributor
asked 10 hours ago
NeugierigNeugierig
441
441
New contributor
New contributor
1
Also in Dutch: het wijf.
– Rudy Velthuis
10 hours ago
2
I guess, the root problem is your assumption, that substantives representing persons are a special case and handled separately. They are not. Not only are numerous counterexamples like das Mädchen, das Kind, and there are also colliding rules, that diminuitives become neuter as das Männchen.
– guidot
8 hours ago
2
@EndreBoth You confuse gender and sex!
– Björn Friedrich
7 hours ago
4
@Philipp, the question is very reasonable, because in German words denoting male humans or animals are usually male and words denoting females are usually female. Exceptions exist and are interesting and worth investigating, which is what the question does.
– Carsten S
6 hours ago
1
@Philipp Especially when you try to correct others, it is important that you don't spread wildy incorrect misinformation like you do here. Grammatical gender and biological sex is strongly correlated in all Indo-European languages and the grammatical gender system probably originates from differences in biological sex.
– jarnbjo
4 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
1
Also in Dutch: het wijf.
– Rudy Velthuis
10 hours ago
2
I guess, the root problem is your assumption, that substantives representing persons are a special case and handled separately. They are not. Not only are numerous counterexamples like das Mädchen, das Kind, and there are also colliding rules, that diminuitives become neuter as das Männchen.
– guidot
8 hours ago
2
@EndreBoth You confuse gender and sex!
– Björn Friedrich
7 hours ago
4
@Philipp, the question is very reasonable, because in German words denoting male humans or animals are usually male and words denoting females are usually female. Exceptions exist and are interesting and worth investigating, which is what the question does.
– Carsten S
6 hours ago
1
@Philipp Especially when you try to correct others, it is important that you don't spread wildy incorrect misinformation like you do here. Grammatical gender and biological sex is strongly correlated in all Indo-European languages and the grammatical gender system probably originates from differences in biological sex.
– jarnbjo
4 hours ago
1
1
Also in Dutch: het wijf.
– Rudy Velthuis
10 hours ago
Also in Dutch: het wijf.
– Rudy Velthuis
10 hours ago
2
2
I guess, the root problem is your assumption, that substantives representing persons are a special case and handled separately. They are not. Not only are numerous counterexamples like das Mädchen, das Kind, and there are also colliding rules, that diminuitives become neuter as das Männchen.
– guidot
8 hours ago
I guess, the root problem is your assumption, that substantives representing persons are a special case and handled separately. They are not. Not only are numerous counterexamples like das Mädchen, das Kind, and there are also colliding rules, that diminuitives become neuter as das Männchen.
– guidot
8 hours ago
2
2
@EndreBoth You confuse gender and sex!
– Björn Friedrich
7 hours ago
@EndreBoth You confuse gender and sex!
– Björn Friedrich
7 hours ago
4
4
@Philipp, the question is very reasonable, because in German words denoting male humans or animals are usually male and words denoting females are usually female. Exceptions exist and are interesting and worth investigating, which is what the question does.
– Carsten S
6 hours ago
@Philipp, the question is very reasonable, because in German words denoting male humans or animals are usually male and words denoting females are usually female. Exceptions exist and are interesting and worth investigating, which is what the question does.
– Carsten S
6 hours ago
1
1
@Philipp Especially when you try to correct others, it is important that you don't spread wildy incorrect misinformation like you do here. Grammatical gender and biological sex is strongly correlated in all Indo-European languages and the grammatical gender system probably originates from differences in biological sex.
– jarnbjo
4 hours ago
@Philipp Especially when you try to correct others, it is important that you don't spread wildy incorrect misinformation like you do here. Grammatical gender and biological sex is strongly correlated in all Indo-European languages and the grammatical gender system probably originates from differences in biological sex.
– jarnbjo
4 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
Since the etymology of Weib is unknown (1,2), there is also no way to explain its gender.
2
Grammatical gender is not necessarily related to etymology. It is not uncommon that cognates in different Germanic languages have different genders. In this case, the Norwegian cognate "viv" is e.g. masculine, the Danish cognate "viv" is common gender and the Swedish cognate "viv" is neuter.
– jarnbjo
7 hours ago
@jarnbjo, still, when I read the entry in DWB (Grimm), it seems like the word has been neuter as far as it can be traced back, and they think that this should be taken into account when considering possible origins.
– Carsten S
7 hours ago
add a comment |
Several comments and answers seem to implicate that grammatical gender and biological sex are two completely different things. This is simply wrong. There is a strong correlation between grammatical gender and biological sex in all Indo-European languages with a distinction between masculine and feminine genders. The split into masculine and feminine genders is also assumed to be rooted in the distinction between biological sexes and goes back to some time in the Proto-Indo-European period. It is assumed that the Proto-Indo-European language originally only had a distinction between animate and inanimate objects and that the animate 'gender' split into masculine and feminine, while the inanimate gender turned into neuter. In the North Germanic languages and some Slavic languages, there is still remains of a gender-like distinction between animate and inanimate things.
There are exeptions, e.g. the already mentioned German words 'Fräulein' and 'Mädchen', which are neuter because all diminutive forms are neuter, but in general, most words solely referring to male persons are of the masculine grammatical gender and most words solely referring to female persons are of the feminine grammatical gender. With a few more exceptions, but still in general, this also applies to words referring to animals. It is a very legit question to ask why 'das Weib' does not follow the general rule.
'Das Weib' and its cognates is or has been neuter in most Germanic languages. The word dates at least back to Proto-Germanic in the period before common era, and was already then neuter. There are conflicting information about the origin of the word. Wiktionary relates the word possibly to Proto-Indo-European *gʰwíh₂bʰ-, which had a different meaning.
One likely explanation, is actually that the word, be it *gʰwíh₂bʰ- or not, originally was of neuter gender, but had a different meaning and therefore did not deviate from the usual correlation. While the meaning changed to 'a female person', the neuter gender was kept.
add a comment |
First of all you always should be aware of two facts:
- The grammatical gender is a property of a noun (i.e. of a word). It is not a property of the thing that is named with this noun.
- The biological sexus of a person and the grammatical gender of a word that is used to name this person are different things.
An example for #1:
The english word "car" can be translated in may ways into German. The possible translations are not perfect synonyms, but when we are are talking about a rusty old limousine you can translate »the car« (which has no gender at all in English) in these three ways into German:
Das Auto
This is a neuter noun and it is the standard translation for "car".
Der Wagen
This is a masculine noun and it means literal "the carriage" but is often used for bigger cars like limousines.
Die Karre
This is a feminine noun and it is used for shabby old cars.
So, while these nouns have three different grammatical genders, they still can be uses as names for the very same car.
Other examples for #2:
Das Mädchen
This also is a neuter noun, and it means girl. It is a diminutive, and in German all diminutives are neuter.
Das Fräulein
Again a diminutive that was used for young ladies. It is outdated and considered not to be political correct anymore.
Die Tunte
This is a female noun used for some men (la-di-da gay man)
Das Kind
Meaning: Child. It is a neuter noun, but is used for persons, who are male or female-
Das Baby
Meaning: Baby, toddler. Same as before.
You should also be aware of the fact that there is a very strong correlation in all Indo-European languages between biological sex and grammatical gender for all words naming an animate subject of a specific sex. It is also commonly assumed that the split between the masculine and feminine grammatical genders, which goes back to Proto-Indo-European, origins in differences in biological sex.
– jarnbjo
4 hours ago
@jarnbjo: While I mostly agree with your comment, it kind of reads as if you were claiming the masculine/feminine distinction to be basal to all Indo-European languages. If I'm not mistaken, the generally (though not universally) accepted consensus is that PIE originally had only a common/neuter (or animate/inanimate) distinction, with the three-way masculine/feminine/neuter system evolving only later, some time after the Anatolian languages like Hittite had branched off from the rest of the Indo-European family.
– Ilmari Karonen
3 hours ago
@IlmariKaronen Yes, it is commonly assumed that PIE originally only had an animate/inanimate distinction and at some point, the animate 'gender' split into masculine and feminine. I am not sure if there is a general consensus on when that happened, but I thought it was assumed to happen during or even in the early PIE period. The Wikipedia article on PIE only describes the three-gender system and does not mention animate/inanimate at all. Sanskrit, which dates back to the same period as Hittite, already had three genders.
– jarnbjo
2 hours ago
add a comment |
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Since the etymology of Weib is unknown (1,2), there is also no way to explain its gender.
2
Grammatical gender is not necessarily related to etymology. It is not uncommon that cognates in different Germanic languages have different genders. In this case, the Norwegian cognate "viv" is e.g. masculine, the Danish cognate "viv" is common gender and the Swedish cognate "viv" is neuter.
– jarnbjo
7 hours ago
@jarnbjo, still, when I read the entry in DWB (Grimm), it seems like the word has been neuter as far as it can be traced back, and they think that this should be taken into account when considering possible origins.
– Carsten S
7 hours ago
add a comment |
Since the etymology of Weib is unknown (1,2), there is also no way to explain its gender.
2
Grammatical gender is not necessarily related to etymology. It is not uncommon that cognates in different Germanic languages have different genders. In this case, the Norwegian cognate "viv" is e.g. masculine, the Danish cognate "viv" is common gender and the Swedish cognate "viv" is neuter.
– jarnbjo
7 hours ago
@jarnbjo, still, when I read the entry in DWB (Grimm), it seems like the word has been neuter as far as it can be traced back, and they think that this should be taken into account when considering possible origins.
– Carsten S
7 hours ago
add a comment |
Since the etymology of Weib is unknown (1,2), there is also no way to explain its gender.
Since the etymology of Weib is unknown (1,2), there is also no way to explain its gender.
answered 7 hours ago
Carsten SCarsten S
13.6k22360
13.6k22360
2
Grammatical gender is not necessarily related to etymology. It is not uncommon that cognates in different Germanic languages have different genders. In this case, the Norwegian cognate "viv" is e.g. masculine, the Danish cognate "viv" is common gender and the Swedish cognate "viv" is neuter.
– jarnbjo
7 hours ago
@jarnbjo, still, when I read the entry in DWB (Grimm), it seems like the word has been neuter as far as it can be traced back, and they think that this should be taken into account when considering possible origins.
– Carsten S
7 hours ago
add a comment |
2
Grammatical gender is not necessarily related to etymology. It is not uncommon that cognates in different Germanic languages have different genders. In this case, the Norwegian cognate "viv" is e.g. masculine, the Danish cognate "viv" is common gender and the Swedish cognate "viv" is neuter.
– jarnbjo
7 hours ago
@jarnbjo, still, when I read the entry in DWB (Grimm), it seems like the word has been neuter as far as it can be traced back, and they think that this should be taken into account when considering possible origins.
– Carsten S
7 hours ago
2
2
Grammatical gender is not necessarily related to etymology. It is not uncommon that cognates in different Germanic languages have different genders. In this case, the Norwegian cognate "viv" is e.g. masculine, the Danish cognate "viv" is common gender and the Swedish cognate "viv" is neuter.
– jarnbjo
7 hours ago
Grammatical gender is not necessarily related to etymology. It is not uncommon that cognates in different Germanic languages have different genders. In this case, the Norwegian cognate "viv" is e.g. masculine, the Danish cognate "viv" is common gender and the Swedish cognate "viv" is neuter.
– jarnbjo
7 hours ago
@jarnbjo, still, when I read the entry in DWB (Grimm), it seems like the word has been neuter as far as it can be traced back, and they think that this should be taken into account when considering possible origins.
– Carsten S
7 hours ago
@jarnbjo, still, when I read the entry in DWB (Grimm), it seems like the word has been neuter as far as it can be traced back, and they think that this should be taken into account when considering possible origins.
– Carsten S
7 hours ago
add a comment |
Several comments and answers seem to implicate that grammatical gender and biological sex are two completely different things. This is simply wrong. There is a strong correlation between grammatical gender and biological sex in all Indo-European languages with a distinction between masculine and feminine genders. The split into masculine and feminine genders is also assumed to be rooted in the distinction between biological sexes and goes back to some time in the Proto-Indo-European period. It is assumed that the Proto-Indo-European language originally only had a distinction between animate and inanimate objects and that the animate 'gender' split into masculine and feminine, while the inanimate gender turned into neuter. In the North Germanic languages and some Slavic languages, there is still remains of a gender-like distinction between animate and inanimate things.
There are exeptions, e.g. the already mentioned German words 'Fräulein' and 'Mädchen', which are neuter because all diminutive forms are neuter, but in general, most words solely referring to male persons are of the masculine grammatical gender and most words solely referring to female persons are of the feminine grammatical gender. With a few more exceptions, but still in general, this also applies to words referring to animals. It is a very legit question to ask why 'das Weib' does not follow the general rule.
'Das Weib' and its cognates is or has been neuter in most Germanic languages. The word dates at least back to Proto-Germanic in the period before common era, and was already then neuter. There are conflicting information about the origin of the word. Wiktionary relates the word possibly to Proto-Indo-European *gʰwíh₂bʰ-, which had a different meaning.
One likely explanation, is actually that the word, be it *gʰwíh₂bʰ- or not, originally was of neuter gender, but had a different meaning and therefore did not deviate from the usual correlation. While the meaning changed to 'a female person', the neuter gender was kept.
add a comment |
Several comments and answers seem to implicate that grammatical gender and biological sex are two completely different things. This is simply wrong. There is a strong correlation between grammatical gender and biological sex in all Indo-European languages with a distinction between masculine and feminine genders. The split into masculine and feminine genders is also assumed to be rooted in the distinction between biological sexes and goes back to some time in the Proto-Indo-European period. It is assumed that the Proto-Indo-European language originally only had a distinction between animate and inanimate objects and that the animate 'gender' split into masculine and feminine, while the inanimate gender turned into neuter. In the North Germanic languages and some Slavic languages, there is still remains of a gender-like distinction between animate and inanimate things.
There are exeptions, e.g. the already mentioned German words 'Fräulein' and 'Mädchen', which are neuter because all diminutive forms are neuter, but in general, most words solely referring to male persons are of the masculine grammatical gender and most words solely referring to female persons are of the feminine grammatical gender. With a few more exceptions, but still in general, this also applies to words referring to animals. It is a very legit question to ask why 'das Weib' does not follow the general rule.
'Das Weib' and its cognates is or has been neuter in most Germanic languages. The word dates at least back to Proto-Germanic in the period before common era, and was already then neuter. There are conflicting information about the origin of the word. Wiktionary relates the word possibly to Proto-Indo-European *gʰwíh₂bʰ-, which had a different meaning.
One likely explanation, is actually that the word, be it *gʰwíh₂bʰ- or not, originally was of neuter gender, but had a different meaning and therefore did not deviate from the usual correlation. While the meaning changed to 'a female person', the neuter gender was kept.
add a comment |
Several comments and answers seem to implicate that grammatical gender and biological sex are two completely different things. This is simply wrong. There is a strong correlation between grammatical gender and biological sex in all Indo-European languages with a distinction between masculine and feminine genders. The split into masculine and feminine genders is also assumed to be rooted in the distinction between biological sexes and goes back to some time in the Proto-Indo-European period. It is assumed that the Proto-Indo-European language originally only had a distinction between animate and inanimate objects and that the animate 'gender' split into masculine and feminine, while the inanimate gender turned into neuter. In the North Germanic languages and some Slavic languages, there is still remains of a gender-like distinction between animate and inanimate things.
There are exeptions, e.g. the already mentioned German words 'Fräulein' and 'Mädchen', which are neuter because all diminutive forms are neuter, but in general, most words solely referring to male persons are of the masculine grammatical gender and most words solely referring to female persons are of the feminine grammatical gender. With a few more exceptions, but still in general, this also applies to words referring to animals. It is a very legit question to ask why 'das Weib' does not follow the general rule.
'Das Weib' and its cognates is or has been neuter in most Germanic languages. The word dates at least back to Proto-Germanic in the period before common era, and was already then neuter. There are conflicting information about the origin of the word. Wiktionary relates the word possibly to Proto-Indo-European *gʰwíh₂bʰ-, which had a different meaning.
One likely explanation, is actually that the word, be it *gʰwíh₂bʰ- or not, originally was of neuter gender, but had a different meaning and therefore did not deviate from the usual correlation. While the meaning changed to 'a female person', the neuter gender was kept.
Several comments and answers seem to implicate that grammatical gender and biological sex are two completely different things. This is simply wrong. There is a strong correlation between grammatical gender and biological sex in all Indo-European languages with a distinction between masculine and feminine genders. The split into masculine and feminine genders is also assumed to be rooted in the distinction between biological sexes and goes back to some time in the Proto-Indo-European period. It is assumed that the Proto-Indo-European language originally only had a distinction between animate and inanimate objects and that the animate 'gender' split into masculine and feminine, while the inanimate gender turned into neuter. In the North Germanic languages and some Slavic languages, there is still remains of a gender-like distinction between animate and inanimate things.
There are exeptions, e.g. the already mentioned German words 'Fräulein' and 'Mädchen', which are neuter because all diminutive forms are neuter, but in general, most words solely referring to male persons are of the masculine grammatical gender and most words solely referring to female persons are of the feminine grammatical gender. With a few more exceptions, but still in general, this also applies to words referring to animals. It is a very legit question to ask why 'das Weib' does not follow the general rule.
'Das Weib' and its cognates is or has been neuter in most Germanic languages. The word dates at least back to Proto-Germanic in the period before common era, and was already then neuter. There are conflicting information about the origin of the word. Wiktionary relates the word possibly to Proto-Indo-European *gʰwíh₂bʰ-, which had a different meaning.
One likely explanation, is actually that the word, be it *gʰwíh₂bʰ- or not, originally was of neuter gender, but had a different meaning and therefore did not deviate from the usual correlation. While the meaning changed to 'a female person', the neuter gender was kept.
answered 2 hours ago
jarnbjojarnbjo
1,520812
1,520812
add a comment |
add a comment |
First of all you always should be aware of two facts:
- The grammatical gender is a property of a noun (i.e. of a word). It is not a property of the thing that is named with this noun.
- The biological sexus of a person and the grammatical gender of a word that is used to name this person are different things.
An example for #1:
The english word "car" can be translated in may ways into German. The possible translations are not perfect synonyms, but when we are are talking about a rusty old limousine you can translate »the car« (which has no gender at all in English) in these three ways into German:
Das Auto
This is a neuter noun and it is the standard translation for "car".
Der Wagen
This is a masculine noun and it means literal "the carriage" but is often used for bigger cars like limousines.
Die Karre
This is a feminine noun and it is used for shabby old cars.
So, while these nouns have three different grammatical genders, they still can be uses as names for the very same car.
Other examples for #2:
Das Mädchen
This also is a neuter noun, and it means girl. It is a diminutive, and in German all diminutives are neuter.
Das Fräulein
Again a diminutive that was used for young ladies. It is outdated and considered not to be political correct anymore.
Die Tunte
This is a female noun used for some men (la-di-da gay man)
Das Kind
Meaning: Child. It is a neuter noun, but is used for persons, who are male or female-
Das Baby
Meaning: Baby, toddler. Same as before.
You should also be aware of the fact that there is a very strong correlation in all Indo-European languages between biological sex and grammatical gender for all words naming an animate subject of a specific sex. It is also commonly assumed that the split between the masculine and feminine grammatical genders, which goes back to Proto-Indo-European, origins in differences in biological sex.
– jarnbjo
4 hours ago
@jarnbjo: While I mostly agree with your comment, it kind of reads as if you were claiming the masculine/feminine distinction to be basal to all Indo-European languages. If I'm not mistaken, the generally (though not universally) accepted consensus is that PIE originally had only a common/neuter (or animate/inanimate) distinction, with the three-way masculine/feminine/neuter system evolving only later, some time after the Anatolian languages like Hittite had branched off from the rest of the Indo-European family.
– Ilmari Karonen
3 hours ago
@IlmariKaronen Yes, it is commonly assumed that PIE originally only had an animate/inanimate distinction and at some point, the animate 'gender' split into masculine and feminine. I am not sure if there is a general consensus on when that happened, but I thought it was assumed to happen during or even in the early PIE period. The Wikipedia article on PIE only describes the three-gender system and does not mention animate/inanimate at all. Sanskrit, which dates back to the same period as Hittite, already had three genders.
– jarnbjo
2 hours ago
add a comment |
First of all you always should be aware of two facts:
- The grammatical gender is a property of a noun (i.e. of a word). It is not a property of the thing that is named with this noun.
- The biological sexus of a person and the grammatical gender of a word that is used to name this person are different things.
An example for #1:
The english word "car" can be translated in may ways into German. The possible translations are not perfect synonyms, but when we are are talking about a rusty old limousine you can translate »the car« (which has no gender at all in English) in these three ways into German:
Das Auto
This is a neuter noun and it is the standard translation for "car".
Der Wagen
This is a masculine noun and it means literal "the carriage" but is often used for bigger cars like limousines.
Die Karre
This is a feminine noun and it is used for shabby old cars.
So, while these nouns have three different grammatical genders, they still can be uses as names for the very same car.
Other examples for #2:
Das Mädchen
This also is a neuter noun, and it means girl. It is a diminutive, and in German all diminutives are neuter.
Das Fräulein
Again a diminutive that was used for young ladies. It is outdated and considered not to be political correct anymore.
Die Tunte
This is a female noun used for some men (la-di-da gay man)
Das Kind
Meaning: Child. It is a neuter noun, but is used for persons, who are male or female-
Das Baby
Meaning: Baby, toddler. Same as before.
You should also be aware of the fact that there is a very strong correlation in all Indo-European languages between biological sex and grammatical gender for all words naming an animate subject of a specific sex. It is also commonly assumed that the split between the masculine and feminine grammatical genders, which goes back to Proto-Indo-European, origins in differences in biological sex.
– jarnbjo
4 hours ago
@jarnbjo: While I mostly agree with your comment, it kind of reads as if you were claiming the masculine/feminine distinction to be basal to all Indo-European languages. If I'm not mistaken, the generally (though not universally) accepted consensus is that PIE originally had only a common/neuter (or animate/inanimate) distinction, with the three-way masculine/feminine/neuter system evolving only later, some time after the Anatolian languages like Hittite had branched off from the rest of the Indo-European family.
– Ilmari Karonen
3 hours ago
@IlmariKaronen Yes, it is commonly assumed that PIE originally only had an animate/inanimate distinction and at some point, the animate 'gender' split into masculine and feminine. I am not sure if there is a general consensus on when that happened, but I thought it was assumed to happen during or even in the early PIE period. The Wikipedia article on PIE only describes the three-gender system and does not mention animate/inanimate at all. Sanskrit, which dates back to the same period as Hittite, already had three genders.
– jarnbjo
2 hours ago
add a comment |
First of all you always should be aware of two facts:
- The grammatical gender is a property of a noun (i.e. of a word). It is not a property of the thing that is named with this noun.
- The biological sexus of a person and the grammatical gender of a word that is used to name this person are different things.
An example for #1:
The english word "car" can be translated in may ways into German. The possible translations are not perfect synonyms, but when we are are talking about a rusty old limousine you can translate »the car« (which has no gender at all in English) in these three ways into German:
Das Auto
This is a neuter noun and it is the standard translation for "car".
Der Wagen
This is a masculine noun and it means literal "the carriage" but is often used for bigger cars like limousines.
Die Karre
This is a feminine noun and it is used for shabby old cars.
So, while these nouns have three different grammatical genders, they still can be uses as names for the very same car.
Other examples for #2:
Das Mädchen
This also is a neuter noun, and it means girl. It is a diminutive, and in German all diminutives are neuter.
Das Fräulein
Again a diminutive that was used for young ladies. It is outdated and considered not to be political correct anymore.
Die Tunte
This is a female noun used for some men (la-di-da gay man)
Das Kind
Meaning: Child. It is a neuter noun, but is used for persons, who are male or female-
Das Baby
Meaning: Baby, toddler. Same as before.
First of all you always should be aware of two facts:
- The grammatical gender is a property of a noun (i.e. of a word). It is not a property of the thing that is named with this noun.
- The biological sexus of a person and the grammatical gender of a word that is used to name this person are different things.
An example for #1:
The english word "car" can be translated in may ways into German. The possible translations are not perfect synonyms, but when we are are talking about a rusty old limousine you can translate »the car« (which has no gender at all in English) in these three ways into German:
Das Auto
This is a neuter noun and it is the standard translation for "car".
Der Wagen
This is a masculine noun and it means literal "the carriage" but is often used for bigger cars like limousines.
Die Karre
This is a feminine noun and it is used for shabby old cars.
So, while these nouns have three different grammatical genders, they still can be uses as names for the very same car.
Other examples for #2:
Das Mädchen
This also is a neuter noun, and it means girl. It is a diminutive, and in German all diminutives are neuter.
Das Fräulein
Again a diminutive that was used for young ladies. It is outdated and considered not to be political correct anymore.
Die Tunte
This is a female noun used for some men (la-di-da gay man)
Das Kind
Meaning: Child. It is a neuter noun, but is used for persons, who are male or female-
Das Baby
Meaning: Baby, toddler. Same as before.
answered 5 hours ago
Hubert SchölnastHubert Schölnast
72.8k6106242
72.8k6106242
You should also be aware of the fact that there is a very strong correlation in all Indo-European languages between biological sex and grammatical gender for all words naming an animate subject of a specific sex. It is also commonly assumed that the split between the masculine and feminine grammatical genders, which goes back to Proto-Indo-European, origins in differences in biological sex.
– jarnbjo
4 hours ago
@jarnbjo: While I mostly agree with your comment, it kind of reads as if you were claiming the masculine/feminine distinction to be basal to all Indo-European languages. If I'm not mistaken, the generally (though not universally) accepted consensus is that PIE originally had only a common/neuter (or animate/inanimate) distinction, with the three-way masculine/feminine/neuter system evolving only later, some time after the Anatolian languages like Hittite had branched off from the rest of the Indo-European family.
– Ilmari Karonen
3 hours ago
@IlmariKaronen Yes, it is commonly assumed that PIE originally only had an animate/inanimate distinction and at some point, the animate 'gender' split into masculine and feminine. I am not sure if there is a general consensus on when that happened, but I thought it was assumed to happen during or even in the early PIE period. The Wikipedia article on PIE only describes the three-gender system and does not mention animate/inanimate at all. Sanskrit, which dates back to the same period as Hittite, already had three genders.
– jarnbjo
2 hours ago
add a comment |
You should also be aware of the fact that there is a very strong correlation in all Indo-European languages between biological sex and grammatical gender for all words naming an animate subject of a specific sex. It is also commonly assumed that the split between the masculine and feminine grammatical genders, which goes back to Proto-Indo-European, origins in differences in biological sex.
– jarnbjo
4 hours ago
@jarnbjo: While I mostly agree with your comment, it kind of reads as if you were claiming the masculine/feminine distinction to be basal to all Indo-European languages. If I'm not mistaken, the generally (though not universally) accepted consensus is that PIE originally had only a common/neuter (or animate/inanimate) distinction, with the three-way masculine/feminine/neuter system evolving only later, some time after the Anatolian languages like Hittite had branched off from the rest of the Indo-European family.
– Ilmari Karonen
3 hours ago
@IlmariKaronen Yes, it is commonly assumed that PIE originally only had an animate/inanimate distinction and at some point, the animate 'gender' split into masculine and feminine. I am not sure if there is a general consensus on when that happened, but I thought it was assumed to happen during or even in the early PIE period. The Wikipedia article on PIE only describes the three-gender system and does not mention animate/inanimate at all. Sanskrit, which dates back to the same period as Hittite, already had three genders.
– jarnbjo
2 hours ago
You should also be aware of the fact that there is a very strong correlation in all Indo-European languages between biological sex and grammatical gender for all words naming an animate subject of a specific sex. It is also commonly assumed that the split between the masculine and feminine grammatical genders, which goes back to Proto-Indo-European, origins in differences in biological sex.
– jarnbjo
4 hours ago
You should also be aware of the fact that there is a very strong correlation in all Indo-European languages between biological sex and grammatical gender for all words naming an animate subject of a specific sex. It is also commonly assumed that the split between the masculine and feminine grammatical genders, which goes back to Proto-Indo-European, origins in differences in biological sex.
– jarnbjo
4 hours ago
@jarnbjo: While I mostly agree with your comment, it kind of reads as if you were claiming the masculine/feminine distinction to be basal to all Indo-European languages. If I'm not mistaken, the generally (though not universally) accepted consensus is that PIE originally had only a common/neuter (or animate/inanimate) distinction, with the three-way masculine/feminine/neuter system evolving only later, some time after the Anatolian languages like Hittite had branched off from the rest of the Indo-European family.
– Ilmari Karonen
3 hours ago
@jarnbjo: While I mostly agree with your comment, it kind of reads as if you were claiming the masculine/feminine distinction to be basal to all Indo-European languages. If I'm not mistaken, the generally (though not universally) accepted consensus is that PIE originally had only a common/neuter (or animate/inanimate) distinction, with the three-way masculine/feminine/neuter system evolving only later, some time after the Anatolian languages like Hittite had branched off from the rest of the Indo-European family.
– Ilmari Karonen
3 hours ago
@IlmariKaronen Yes, it is commonly assumed that PIE originally only had an animate/inanimate distinction and at some point, the animate 'gender' split into masculine and feminine. I am not sure if there is a general consensus on when that happened, but I thought it was assumed to happen during or even in the early PIE period. The Wikipedia article on PIE only describes the three-gender system and does not mention animate/inanimate at all. Sanskrit, which dates back to the same period as Hittite, already had three genders.
– jarnbjo
2 hours ago
@IlmariKaronen Yes, it is commonly assumed that PIE originally only had an animate/inanimate distinction and at some point, the animate 'gender' split into masculine and feminine. I am not sure if there is a general consensus on when that happened, but I thought it was assumed to happen during or even in the early PIE period. The Wikipedia article on PIE only describes the three-gender system and does not mention animate/inanimate at all. Sanskrit, which dates back to the same period as Hittite, already had three genders.
– jarnbjo
2 hours ago
add a comment |
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1
Also in Dutch: het wijf.
– Rudy Velthuis
10 hours ago
2
I guess, the root problem is your assumption, that substantives representing persons are a special case and handled separately. They are not. Not only are numerous counterexamples like das Mädchen, das Kind, and there are also colliding rules, that diminuitives become neuter as das Männchen.
– guidot
8 hours ago
2
@EndreBoth You confuse gender and sex!
– Björn Friedrich
7 hours ago
4
@Philipp, the question is very reasonable, because in German words denoting male humans or animals are usually male and words denoting females are usually female. Exceptions exist and are interesting and worth investigating, which is what the question does.
– Carsten S
6 hours ago
1
@Philipp Especially when you try to correct others, it is important that you don't spread wildy incorrect misinformation like you do here. Grammatical gender and biological sex is strongly correlated in all Indo-European languages and the grammatical gender system probably originates from differences in biological sex.
– jarnbjo
4 hours ago