Could the Saturn V actually have launched astronauts around Venus?What will be NASA's successor to the Saturn V rocket?What engineering challenges would be posed by a manned mission to Ceres?What stage of development are meteorology models of Venus?Terraforming Venus with the Bosch reaction, using hydrogen from JupiterHas in-space refueling been done?Are there any benefits on Venus compared to Earth with respect to reusing launch vehicles?Why did the design for Space Shuttle docking change?What was the maximum thrust of the Rocketdyne F-1 engine?Could the Apollo LM abort mode be engaged after touchdown? What would have happened if it was?Could an Apollo Lunar Module have landed and returned without Earth assistance?
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Could the Saturn V actually have launched astronauts around Venus?
What will be NASA's successor to the Saturn V rocket?What engineering challenges would be posed by a manned mission to Ceres?What stage of development are meteorology models of Venus?Terraforming Venus with the Bosch reaction, using hydrogen from JupiterHas in-space refueling been done?Are there any benefits on Venus compared to Earth with respect to reusing launch vehicles?Why did the design for Space Shuttle docking change?What was the maximum thrust of the Rocketdyne F-1 engine?Could the Apollo LM abort mode be engaged after touchdown? What would have happened if it was?Could an Apollo Lunar Module have landed and returned without Earth assistance?
$begingroup$
One of the more interesting proposed uses of a Saturn V was to launch a manned flyby of Venus. Some of the cargo would have been stored inside the tank of the upper stage, which would be retained throughout most of the flight. The question I have is how large of a payload could the Saturn V have launched to Venus, and is it even remotely reasonable such a mission could have worked?
crewed-spaceflight apollo-program venus
asked 7 hours ago
PearsonArtPhoto♦PearsonArtPhoto
83k16236454
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
One of the more interesting proposed uses of a Saturn V was to launch a manned flyby of Venus. Some of the cargo would have been stored inside the tank of the upper stage, which would be retained throughout most of the flight. The question I have is how large of a payload could the Saturn V have launched to Venus, and is it even remotely reasonable such a mission could have worked?
crewed-spaceflight apollo-program venus
asked 7 hours ago
PearsonArtPhoto♦PearsonArtPhoto
83k16236454
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
That is why Venus instead of Mars, but still, it is interesting to think about...
$endgroup$
– PearsonArtPhoto♦
5 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
The linear distance at close approach is misleading; space trajectories don't work that way.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
One of the more interesting proposed uses of a Saturn V was to launch a manned flyby of Venus. Some of the cargo would have been stored inside the tank of the upper stage, which would be retained throughout most of the flight. The question I have is how large of a payload could the Saturn V have launched to Venus, and is it even remotely reasonable such a mission could have worked?
crewed-spaceflight apollo-program venus
asked 7 hours ago
PearsonArtPhoto♦PearsonArtPhoto
83k16236454
$endgroup$
One of the more interesting proposed uses of a Saturn V was to launch a manned flyby of Venus. Some of the cargo would have been stored inside the tank of the upper stage, which would be retained throughout most of the flight. The question I have is how large of a payload could the Saturn V have launched to Venus, and is it even remotely reasonable such a mission could have worked?
crewed-spaceflight apollo-program venus
crewed-spaceflight apollo-program venus
asked 7 hours ago
PearsonArtPhoto♦PearsonArtPhoto
83k16236454
asked 7 hours ago
PearsonArtPhoto♦PearsonArtPhoto
83k16236454
asked 7 hours ago
PearsonArtPhoto♦PearsonArtPhoto
83k16236454
asked 7 hours ago
PearsonArtPhoto♦PearsonArtPhoto
83k16236454
asked 7 hours ago
PearsonArtPhoto♦PearsonArtPhoto
83k16236454
83k16236454
$begingroup$
That is why Venus instead of Mars, but still, it is interesting to think about...
$endgroup$
– PearsonArtPhoto♦
5 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
The linear distance at close approach is misleading; space trajectories don't work that way.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
That is why Venus instead of Mars, but still, it is interesting to think about...
$endgroup$
– PearsonArtPhoto♦
5 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
The linear distance at close approach is misleading; space trajectories don't work that way.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
That is why Venus instead of Mars, but still, it is interesting to think about...
$endgroup$
– PearsonArtPhoto♦
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
That is why Venus instead of Mars, but still, it is interesting to think about...
$endgroup$
– PearsonArtPhoto♦
5 hours ago
4
4
$begingroup$
The linear distance at close approach is misleading; space trajectories don't work that way.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The linear distance at close approach is misleading; space trajectories don't work that way.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
5 hours ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
It takes surprisingly little delta-v to reach Venus for a flyby -- about 3850 m/s from LEO instead of the 3200 m/s or so required to get to the moon -- so while the payload would have to be reduced from the normal Apollo mission, it wouldn't have been impossible.
For Apollo 17, if we consider the payload to be the CSM, LM, and LM adapter, the total is 48.6 tons. For a trans-Venusian payload, the mass budget comes down to around 31 tons.
That seems a prohibitive reduction, but for Apollo, the payload was largely propellant: lunar orbit insertion and trans-Earth injection on the CSM, descent and ascent for the LM. In total this was about 29 tons of propellant. Since there was no orbital insertion or landing planned, the only propellant needed would be for course correction, aborts, and braking for re-entry. The Bellcomm study proposed 8.6 tons of CSM propellant, dominated by the requirement for an abort within 45 minutes of trans-Venusian injection. (From the diagram in the Wikipedia article, you can see the service module is shortened significantly to allow for the propulsion system to be recessed; eliminating most of the propellant tankage volume makes this possible.) That would give a significant mass budget for the living space and equipment.
Overall the mission seems feasible. The trans-Venusian spacecraft is somewhat comparable to Skylab, which was also built into an S-IVB-shaped hull. Skylab was a "dry workshop" which never contained propellant; Apollo-Venus would be less roomy because of the separate oxidizer tank and shape of the hydrogen tank, but the hydrogen tank is still about 6 meters across and 10 meters long.
The longest Skylab mission was almost three months; this proposal would take 13 months: 4 months out to Venus and 9 months back! That is a long time for three people to live in an enclosed space, even a fairly roomy one. The Bellcomm study outlines requirements for environmental support; waste water would need to be recycled and oxygen recovered from CO2, neither of which was required by the short Apollo flights.
I'm a little skeptical of the wet workshop concept. Anything that you want to put in the tank at launch has to stand up to liquid hydrogen temperatures.
Radiation exposure over a year-long mission outside of Earth's magnetosphere is also concerning. The Bellcomm study indicates that neither the Apollo CM nor the S-IVB tanks have thick enough shielding for a one-year mission, so additional shielding mass would have to be added to the S-IVB.
All in all it probably wasn't a good idea. It's a huge investment for a three hour crewed flyby; it couldn't accomplish anything that couldn't be done by a few Mariner-type missions.
If you want to do a similar Mars mission, by the way, you need to scrape down another 7200kg of payload. Good luck with that...
answered 5 hours ago
Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove
87.5k3292377
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Reading that Bellcomm study is...interesting. Written before any Apollo missions had flown.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
4 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
A good assessment. Risky, expensive and no point.
$endgroup$
– GdD
3 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble I only skimmed it. Did anything in particular stand out for you beyond "uh yeah need more radiation shielding"?
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
3 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
How much kg of food on average does an ISS astronaut consume per day? A ~year long mission this may actually be substantial for N people. That's my only outstanding thought after reading another of your awesome answers :).
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn That and other consumables questions are addressed in the Bellcomm study. Not only did they plan to carry a year’s worth of freeze dried food, they planned to stow a year’s worth of solid waste... 😫
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
33 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
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1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
It takes surprisingly little delta-v to reach Venus for a flyby -- about 3850 m/s from LEO instead of the 3200 m/s or so required to get to the moon -- so while the payload would have to be reduced from the normal Apollo mission, it wouldn't have been impossible.
For Apollo 17, if we consider the payload to be the CSM, LM, and LM adapter, the total is 48.6 tons. For a trans-Venusian payload, the mass budget comes down to around 31 tons.
That seems a prohibitive reduction, but for Apollo, the payload was largely propellant: lunar orbit insertion and trans-Earth injection on the CSM, descent and ascent for the LM. In total this was about 29 tons of propellant. Since there was no orbital insertion or landing planned, the only propellant needed would be for course correction, aborts, and braking for re-entry. The Bellcomm study proposed 8.6 tons of CSM propellant, dominated by the requirement for an abort within 45 minutes of trans-Venusian injection. (From the diagram in the Wikipedia article, you can see the service module is shortened significantly to allow for the propulsion system to be recessed; eliminating most of the propellant tankage volume makes this possible.) That would give a significant mass budget for the living space and equipment.
Overall the mission seems feasible. The trans-Venusian spacecraft is somewhat comparable to Skylab, which was also built into an S-IVB-shaped hull. Skylab was a "dry workshop" which never contained propellant; Apollo-Venus would be less roomy because of the separate oxidizer tank and shape of the hydrogen tank, but the hydrogen tank is still about 6 meters across and 10 meters long.
The longest Skylab mission was almost three months; this proposal would take 13 months: 4 months out to Venus and 9 months back! That is a long time for three people to live in an enclosed space, even a fairly roomy one. The Bellcomm study outlines requirements for environmental support; waste water would need to be recycled and oxygen recovered from CO2, neither of which was required by the short Apollo flights.
I'm a little skeptical of the wet workshop concept. Anything that you want to put in the tank at launch has to stand up to liquid hydrogen temperatures.
Radiation exposure over a year-long mission outside of Earth's magnetosphere is also concerning. The Bellcomm study indicates that neither the Apollo CM nor the S-IVB tanks have thick enough shielding for a one-year mission, so additional shielding mass would have to be added to the S-IVB.
All in all it probably wasn't a good idea. It's a huge investment for a three hour crewed flyby; it couldn't accomplish anything that couldn't be done by a few Mariner-type missions.
If you want to do a similar Mars mission, by the way, you need to scrape down another 7200kg of payload. Good luck with that...
answered 5 hours ago
Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove
87.5k3292377
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Reading that Bellcomm study is...interesting. Written before any Apollo missions had flown.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
4 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
A good assessment. Risky, expensive and no point.
$endgroup$
– GdD
3 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble I only skimmed it. Did anything in particular stand out for you beyond "uh yeah need more radiation shielding"?
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
3 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
How much kg of food on average does an ISS astronaut consume per day? A ~year long mission this may actually be substantial for N people. That's my only outstanding thought after reading another of your awesome answers :).
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn That and other consumables questions are addressed in the Bellcomm study. Not only did they plan to carry a year’s worth of freeze dried food, they planned to stow a year’s worth of solid waste... 😫
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
33 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
It takes surprisingly little delta-v to reach Venus for a flyby -- about 3850 m/s from LEO instead of the 3200 m/s or so required to get to the moon -- so while the payload would have to be reduced from the normal Apollo mission, it wouldn't have been impossible.
For Apollo 17, if we consider the payload to be the CSM, LM, and LM adapter, the total is 48.6 tons. For a trans-Venusian payload, the mass budget comes down to around 31 tons.
That seems a prohibitive reduction, but for Apollo, the payload was largely propellant: lunar orbit insertion and trans-Earth injection on the CSM, descent and ascent for the LM. In total this was about 29 tons of propellant. Since there was no orbital insertion or landing planned, the only propellant needed would be for course correction, aborts, and braking for re-entry. The Bellcomm study proposed 8.6 tons of CSM propellant, dominated by the requirement for an abort within 45 minutes of trans-Venusian injection. (From the diagram in the Wikipedia article, you can see the service module is shortened significantly to allow for the propulsion system to be recessed; eliminating most of the propellant tankage volume makes this possible.) That would give a significant mass budget for the living space and equipment.
Overall the mission seems feasible. The trans-Venusian spacecraft is somewhat comparable to Skylab, which was also built into an S-IVB-shaped hull. Skylab was a "dry workshop" which never contained propellant; Apollo-Venus would be less roomy because of the separate oxidizer tank and shape of the hydrogen tank, but the hydrogen tank is still about 6 meters across and 10 meters long.
The longest Skylab mission was almost three months; this proposal would take 13 months: 4 months out to Venus and 9 months back! That is a long time for three people to live in an enclosed space, even a fairly roomy one. The Bellcomm study outlines requirements for environmental support; waste water would need to be recycled and oxygen recovered from CO2, neither of which was required by the short Apollo flights.
I'm a little skeptical of the wet workshop concept. Anything that you want to put in the tank at launch has to stand up to liquid hydrogen temperatures.
Radiation exposure over a year-long mission outside of Earth's magnetosphere is also concerning. The Bellcomm study indicates that neither the Apollo CM nor the S-IVB tanks have thick enough shielding for a one-year mission, so additional shielding mass would have to be added to the S-IVB.
All in all it probably wasn't a good idea. It's a huge investment for a three hour crewed flyby; it couldn't accomplish anything that couldn't be done by a few Mariner-type missions.
If you want to do a similar Mars mission, by the way, you need to scrape down another 7200kg of payload. Good luck with that...
answered 5 hours ago
Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove
87.5k3292377
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Reading that Bellcomm study is...interesting. Written before any Apollo missions had flown.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
4 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
A good assessment. Risky, expensive and no point.
$endgroup$
– GdD
3 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble I only skimmed it. Did anything in particular stand out for you beyond "uh yeah need more radiation shielding"?
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
3 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
How much kg of food on average does an ISS astronaut consume per day? A ~year long mission this may actually be substantial for N people. That's my only outstanding thought after reading another of your awesome answers :).
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn That and other consumables questions are addressed in the Bellcomm study. Not only did they plan to carry a year’s worth of freeze dried food, they planned to stow a year’s worth of solid waste... 😫
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
33 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
It takes surprisingly little delta-v to reach Venus for a flyby -- about 3850 m/s from LEO instead of the 3200 m/s or so required to get to the moon -- so while the payload would have to be reduced from the normal Apollo mission, it wouldn't have been impossible.
For Apollo 17, if we consider the payload to be the CSM, LM, and LM adapter, the total is 48.6 tons. For a trans-Venusian payload, the mass budget comes down to around 31 tons.
That seems a prohibitive reduction, but for Apollo, the payload was largely propellant: lunar orbit insertion and trans-Earth injection on the CSM, descent and ascent for the LM. In total this was about 29 tons of propellant. Since there was no orbital insertion or landing planned, the only propellant needed would be for course correction, aborts, and braking for re-entry. The Bellcomm study proposed 8.6 tons of CSM propellant, dominated by the requirement for an abort within 45 minutes of trans-Venusian injection. (From the diagram in the Wikipedia article, you can see the service module is shortened significantly to allow for the propulsion system to be recessed; eliminating most of the propellant tankage volume makes this possible.) That would give a significant mass budget for the living space and equipment.
Overall the mission seems feasible. The trans-Venusian spacecraft is somewhat comparable to Skylab, which was also built into an S-IVB-shaped hull. Skylab was a "dry workshop" which never contained propellant; Apollo-Venus would be less roomy because of the separate oxidizer tank and shape of the hydrogen tank, but the hydrogen tank is still about 6 meters across and 10 meters long.
The longest Skylab mission was almost three months; this proposal would take 13 months: 4 months out to Venus and 9 months back! That is a long time for three people to live in an enclosed space, even a fairly roomy one. The Bellcomm study outlines requirements for environmental support; waste water would need to be recycled and oxygen recovered from CO2, neither of which was required by the short Apollo flights.
I'm a little skeptical of the wet workshop concept. Anything that you want to put in the tank at launch has to stand up to liquid hydrogen temperatures.
Radiation exposure over a year-long mission outside of Earth's magnetosphere is also concerning. The Bellcomm study indicates that neither the Apollo CM nor the S-IVB tanks have thick enough shielding for a one-year mission, so additional shielding mass would have to be added to the S-IVB.
All in all it probably wasn't a good idea. It's a huge investment for a three hour crewed flyby; it couldn't accomplish anything that couldn't be done by a few Mariner-type missions.
If you want to do a similar Mars mission, by the way, you need to scrape down another 7200kg of payload. Good luck with that...
answered 5 hours ago
Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove
87.5k3292377
$endgroup$
It takes surprisingly little delta-v to reach Venus for a flyby -- about 3850 m/s from LEO instead of the 3200 m/s or so required to get to the moon -- so while the payload would have to be reduced from the normal Apollo mission, it wouldn't have been impossible.
For Apollo 17, if we consider the payload to be the CSM, LM, and LM adapter, the total is 48.6 tons. For a trans-Venusian payload, the mass budget comes down to around 31 tons.
That seems a prohibitive reduction, but for Apollo, the payload was largely propellant: lunar orbit insertion and trans-Earth injection on the CSM, descent and ascent for the LM. In total this was about 29 tons of propellant. Since there was no orbital insertion or landing planned, the only propellant needed would be for course correction, aborts, and braking for re-entry. The Bellcomm study proposed 8.6 tons of CSM propellant, dominated by the requirement for an abort within 45 minutes of trans-Venusian injection. (From the diagram in the Wikipedia article, you can see the service module is shortened significantly to allow for the propulsion system to be recessed; eliminating most of the propellant tankage volume makes this possible.) That would give a significant mass budget for the living space and equipment.
Overall the mission seems feasible. The trans-Venusian spacecraft is somewhat comparable to Skylab, which was also built into an S-IVB-shaped hull. Skylab was a "dry workshop" which never contained propellant; Apollo-Venus would be less roomy because of the separate oxidizer tank and shape of the hydrogen tank, but the hydrogen tank is still about 6 meters across and 10 meters long.
The longest Skylab mission was almost three months; this proposal would take 13 months: 4 months out to Venus and 9 months back! That is a long time for three people to live in an enclosed space, even a fairly roomy one. The Bellcomm study outlines requirements for environmental support; waste water would need to be recycled and oxygen recovered from CO2, neither of which was required by the short Apollo flights.
I'm a little skeptical of the wet workshop concept. Anything that you want to put in the tank at launch has to stand up to liquid hydrogen temperatures.
Radiation exposure over a year-long mission outside of Earth's magnetosphere is also concerning. The Bellcomm study indicates that neither the Apollo CM nor the S-IVB tanks have thick enough shielding for a one-year mission, so additional shielding mass would have to be added to the S-IVB.
All in all it probably wasn't a good idea. It's a huge investment for a three hour crewed flyby; it couldn't accomplish anything that couldn't be done by a few Mariner-type missions.
If you want to do a similar Mars mission, by the way, you need to scrape down another 7200kg of payload. Good luck with that...
answered 5 hours ago
Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove
87.5k3292377
edited 3 hours ago
answered 5 hours ago
Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove
87.5k3292377
answered 5 hours ago
Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove
87.5k3292377
answered 5 hours ago
Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove
87.5k3292377
87.5k3292377
1
$begingroup$
Reading that Bellcomm study is...interesting. Written before any Apollo missions had flown.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
4 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
A good assessment. Risky, expensive and no point.
$endgroup$
– GdD
3 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble I only skimmed it. Did anything in particular stand out for you beyond "uh yeah need more radiation shielding"?
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
3 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
How much kg of food on average does an ISS astronaut consume per day? A ~year long mission this may actually be substantial for N people. That's my only outstanding thought after reading another of your awesome answers :).
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn That and other consumables questions are addressed in the Bellcomm study. Not only did they plan to carry a year’s worth of freeze dried food, they planned to stow a year’s worth of solid waste... 😫
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
33 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
1
$begingroup$
Reading that Bellcomm study is...interesting. Written before any Apollo missions had flown.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
4 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
A good assessment. Risky, expensive and no point.
$endgroup$
– GdD
3 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble I only skimmed it. Did anything in particular stand out for you beyond "uh yeah need more radiation shielding"?
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
3 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
How much kg of food on average does an ISS astronaut consume per day? A ~year long mission this may actually be substantial for N people. That's my only outstanding thought after reading another of your awesome answers :).
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn That and other consumables questions are addressed in the Bellcomm study. Not only did they plan to carry a year’s worth of freeze dried food, they planned to stow a year’s worth of solid waste... 😫
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
33 mins ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Reading that Bellcomm study is...interesting. Written before any Apollo missions had flown.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Reading that Bellcomm study is...interesting. Written before any Apollo missions had flown.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
4 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
A good assessment. Risky, expensive and no point.
$endgroup$
– GdD
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
A good assessment. Risky, expensive and no point.
$endgroup$
– GdD
3 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble I only skimmed it. Did anything in particular stand out for you beyond "uh yeah need more radiation shielding"?
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@OrganicMarble I only skimmed it. Did anything in particular stand out for you beyond "uh yeah need more radiation shielding"?
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
3 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
How much kg of food on average does an ISS astronaut consume per day? A ~year long mission this may actually be substantial for N people. That's my only outstanding thought after reading another of your awesome answers :).
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
How much kg of food on average does an ISS astronaut consume per day? A ~year long mission this may actually be substantial for N people. That's my only outstanding thought after reading another of your awesome answers :).
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn That and other consumables questions are addressed in the Bellcomm study. Not only did they plan to carry a year’s worth of freeze dried food, they planned to stow a year’s worth of solid waste... 😫
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
33 mins ago
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn That and other consumables questions are addressed in the Bellcomm study. Not only did they plan to carry a year’s worth of freeze dried food, they planned to stow a year’s worth of solid waste... 😫
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
33 mins ago
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$begingroup$
That is why Venus instead of Mars, but still, it is interesting to think about...
$endgroup$
– PearsonArtPhoto♦
5 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
The linear distance at close approach is misleading; space trajectories don't work that way.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
5 hours ago