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Can unconscious characters be unwilling? [duplicate]

Can unconscious characters be willing?Can you make an unwilling creature willing? In other words, what defines “willing”?What is the meaning of 'permanent' in description of True Polymorph?How do I calculate DPR for spellcasters?What to do when someone's attacking you, but succeeding the save is worse than failing it?Are dexterity saving throws based on sight?How do you determine if a spell can damage objects?When do I roll a Saving Throw?Can a shapechanger be affected by Polymorph if they are forced to be willing?Language discrepancy between SRD and PHBHow does Healing Spirit interact with death saving throws?What counts as a magical effect?

10

$begingroup$

This question already has an answer here:

• 
  Can you make an unwilling creature willing? In other words, what defines “willing”?
  
  1 answer
  
  

Some spells like enlarge/reduce and polymorph specify that only an unwilling creature makes a saving throw:

If the target is unwilling, it can make a Constitution saving throw.

and

An unwilling creature must make a Wisdom saving throw to avoid the effect.

... but is an unconscious character able to make this judgment (and therefore be eligible to a saving throw)?

Mind you, I've seen this related question on opting in to certain spells, but I'm specifically asking about opting out so as to be eligible for the saving throws.

dnd-5e spells saving-throw unconscious

share|improve this question

asked 5 hours ago

David CoffronDavid Coffron

37.6k3129264

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marked as duplicate by illustro, Dale M dnd-5e
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4 mins ago

This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  The referenced question's marked answer didn't satisfy you in what way?
  $endgroup$
  – Tyler Gubala
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


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  @NautArch The default position is neither unwilling nor willing. Selecting either is its own choice. It is not overwhelmingly clear that being (un)able to choose one is equivalent to being (un)able to choose another
  $endgroup$
  – David Coffron
  5 hours ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


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  I'm not sure this is a duplicate because after reading the other question I can get 2 answers for this one 1: "An unconscious character can't make the decision to be willing so an unconscious character can't make the decision to be unwilling either". or 2: "An unconscious character can't be willing so that must mean that it is always unwilling". By the definition of a duplicate the answer should be obvious
  $endgroup$
  – Sdjz
  5 hours ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @illustro See Sdjz's comment. I agree that this is different enough.
  $endgroup$
  – NautArch
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


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  @illustro I care in no way about willing. "Unwilling" is a completely different term. They are not a direct dichotomy and proving something about willingness says nothing about unwillingness.
  $endgroup$
  – David Coffron
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 4 more comments

10

$begingroup$

This question already has an answer here:

• 
  Can you make an unwilling creature willing? In other words, what defines “willing”?
  
  1 answer
  
  

Some spells like enlarge/reduce and polymorph specify that only an unwilling creature makes a saving throw:

If the target is unwilling, it can make a Constitution saving throw.

and

An unwilling creature must make a Wisdom saving throw to avoid the effect.

... but is an unconscious character able to make this judgment (and therefore be eligible to a saving throw)?

Mind you, I've seen this related question on opting in to certain spells, but I'm specifically asking about opting out so as to be eligible for the saving throws.

dnd-5e spells saving-throw unconscious

share|improve this question

asked 5 hours ago

David CoffronDavid Coffron

37.6k3129264

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marked as duplicate by illustro, Dale M dnd-5e
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4 mins ago

This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  The referenced question's marked answer didn't satisfy you in what way?
  $endgroup$
  – Tyler Gubala
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @NautArch The default position is neither unwilling nor willing. Selecting either is its own choice. It is not overwhelmingly clear that being (un)able to choose one is equivalent to being (un)able to choose another
  $endgroup$
  – David Coffron
  5 hours ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  6
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  I'm not sure this is a duplicate because after reading the other question I can get 2 answers for this one 1: "An unconscious character can't make the decision to be willing so an unconscious character can't make the decision to be unwilling either". or 2: "An unconscious character can't be willing so that must mean that it is always unwilling". By the definition of a duplicate the answer should be obvious
  $endgroup$
  – Sdjz
  5 hours ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @illustro See Sdjz's comment. I agree that this is different enough.
  $endgroup$
  – NautArch
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @illustro I care in no way about willing. "Unwilling" is a completely different term. They are not a direct dichotomy and proving something about willingness says nothing about unwillingness.
  $endgroup$
  – David Coffron
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 4 more comments

$begingroup$

This question already has an answer here:

• 
  Can you make an unwilling creature willing? In other words, what defines “willing”?
  
  1 answer
  
  

Some spells like enlarge/reduce and polymorph specify that only an unwilling creature makes a saving throw:

If the target is unwilling, it can make a Constitution saving throw.

and

An unwilling creature must make a Wisdom saving throw to avoid the effect.

... but is an unconscious character able to make this judgment (and therefore be eligible to a saving throw)?

Mind you, I've seen this related question on opting in to certain spells, but I'm specifically asking about opting out so as to be eligible for the saving throws.

dnd-5e spells saving-throw unconscious

share|improve this question

asked 5 hours ago

David CoffronDavid Coffron

37.6k3129264

$endgroup$

share|improve this question

asked 5 hours ago

David CoffronDavid Coffron

37.6k3129264

share|improve this question

asked 5 hours ago

David CoffronDavid Coffron

37.6k3129264

asked 5 hours ago

David CoffronDavid Coffron

37.6k3129264

asked 5 hours ago

David CoffronDavid Coffron

37.6k3129264

2 Answers
2

active

oldest

votes

13

$begingroup$

It is up to the DM

"Willing" and "unwilling" are not game terms and are not defined anywhere in the rules and thus we are stuck with generic definitions.

Unwilling:

1. not willing; reluctant; loath; averse:


2. opposed; offering resistance; stubborn or obstinate; refractory:

"Willing" at least is pretty clearly a choice, you are mentally choosing to consent to something. "Unwilling" is much less clear.

Unwilling has at least two opposed ways to interpret it

As per the above definition, "unwilling" can mean, in broad strokes, "the absence of willingness" (thus an unconscious person would be by default unwilling) or it can mean "opposed" (which requires a conscious decision and thus an unconscious creature would not be considered unwilling).

Depending on what definition you are using either you must choose to be (un)willing and not choosing either means you are neither or you are always one or the other. Both are valid definitions.

DM decides ambiguities

The term is ambiguous, in other words, and the person who decides that at your table will be the DM. There is simply no way to magic away the ambiguity of the English language in this case.

At my table

For what it is worth, in my games, I treat all characters as being unwilling unless they are explicitly willing and have had no issues, confusion, or complaints.

share|improve this answer

edited 4 hours ago

answered 5 hours ago

RubiksmooseRubiksmoose

58.4k10284433

$endgroup$

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  I'd agree with your interpretation/ruling. Anyone that's not actually willing is unwilling.
  $endgroup$
  – V2Blast
  2 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

0

$begingroup$

Just my $0.02, but while I see "unwilling" as the opposite of "willing", I think both words require consciousness. To be "unwilling" is to apply one's will to rejecting something. So it's not the logical negation of "willing".

One doesn't describe a sleeping person as 'unwilling'.

share|improve this answer

answered 1 hour ago

Mr. GuestMr. Guest

1

New contributor

Mr. Guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  "One doesn't describe a sleeping person as 'unwilling'." I'd strongly disagree: this ties your statement in my mind to consenting, and I would describe a sleeping person as inherently unconsenting. If that is not your intent, I'd encourage you to edit and clarify, as I expect the connection will drive a lot of negativity.
  $endgroup$
  – TemporalWolf
  1 hour ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance. And I totally agree with TemporalWolf's comment.
  $endgroup$
  – V2Blast
  54 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @TemporalWolf if we will use "unwilling" in the "actively opposed" sense, as Mr Guest is using it, then this has nothing to do with consent or lack of thereof. Consent and willingness are not perfect synonyms. Unconsenting always means lack of consent. Unwilling has two meanings actively used in language.
  $endgroup$
  – Mołot
  34 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @Mołot that's why I urged the OP to edit and clarify: I don't think he's wrong that unwilling has two potential meanings, it's just the specific example he used, at least for me, leads to a very negative connection.
  $endgroup$
  – TemporalWolf
  27 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

13

$begingroup$

It is up to the DM

"Willing" and "unwilling" are not game terms and are not defined anywhere in the rules and thus we are stuck with generic definitions.

Unwilling:

1. not willing; reluctant; loath; averse:


2. opposed; offering resistance; stubborn or obstinate; refractory:

"Willing" at least is pretty clearly a choice, you are mentally choosing to consent to something. "Unwilling" is much less clear.

Unwilling has at least two opposed ways to interpret it

As per the above definition, "unwilling" can mean, in broad strokes, "the absence of willingness" (thus an unconscious person would be by default unwilling) or it can mean "opposed" (which requires a conscious decision and thus an unconscious creature would not be considered unwilling).

Depending on what definition you are using either you must choose to be (un)willing and not choosing either means you are neither or you are always one or the other. Both are valid definitions.

DM decides ambiguities

The term is ambiguous, in other words, and the person who decides that at your table will be the DM. There is simply no way to magic away the ambiguity of the English language in this case.

At my table

For what it is worth, in my games, I treat all characters as being unwilling unless they are explicitly willing and have had no issues, confusion, or complaints.

share|improve this answer

edited 4 hours ago

answered 5 hours ago

RubiksmooseRubiksmoose

58.4k10284433

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  4
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  I'd agree with your interpretation/ruling. Anyone that's not actually willing is unwilling.
  $endgroup$
  – V2Blast
  2 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

13

$begingroup$

It is up to the DM

"Willing" and "unwilling" are not game terms and are not defined anywhere in the rules and thus we are stuck with generic definitions.

Unwilling:

1. not willing; reluctant; loath; averse:


2. opposed; offering resistance; stubborn or obstinate; refractory:

"Willing" at least is pretty clearly a choice, you are mentally choosing to consent to something. "Unwilling" is much less clear.

Unwilling has at least two opposed ways to interpret it

As per the above definition, "unwilling" can mean, in broad strokes, "the absence of willingness" (thus an unconscious person would be by default unwilling) or it can mean "opposed" (which requires a conscious decision and thus an unconscious creature would not be considered unwilling).

Depending on what definition you are using either you must choose to be (un)willing and not choosing either means you are neither or you are always one or the other. Both are valid definitions.

DM decides ambiguities

The term is ambiguous, in other words, and the person who decides that at your table will be the DM. There is simply no way to magic away the ambiguity of the English language in this case.

At my table

For what it is worth, in my games, I treat all characters as being unwilling unless they are explicitly willing and have had no issues, confusion, or complaints.

share|improve this answer

edited 4 hours ago

answered 5 hours ago

RubiksmooseRubiksmoose

58.4k10284433

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  4
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  I'd agree with your interpretation/ruling. Anyone that's not actually willing is unwilling.
  $endgroup$
  – V2Blast
  2 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

$begingroup$

It is up to the DM

"Willing" and "unwilling" are not game terms and are not defined anywhere in the rules and thus we are stuck with generic definitions.

Unwilling:

1. not willing; reluctant; loath; averse:


2. opposed; offering resistance; stubborn or obstinate; refractory:

"Willing" at least is pretty clearly a choice, you are mentally choosing to consent to something. "Unwilling" is much less clear.

Unwilling has at least two opposed ways to interpret it

As per the above definition, "unwilling" can mean, in broad strokes, "the absence of willingness" (thus an unconscious person would be by default unwilling) or it can mean "opposed" (which requires a conscious decision and thus an unconscious creature would not be considered unwilling).

Depending on what definition you are using either you must choose to be (un)willing and not choosing either means you are neither or you are always one or the other. Both are valid definitions.

DM decides ambiguities

The term is ambiguous, in other words, and the person who decides that at your table will be the DM. There is simply no way to magic away the ambiguity of the English language in this case.

At my table

For what it is worth, in my games, I treat all characters as being unwilling unless they are explicitly willing and have had no issues, confusion, or complaints.

share|improve this answer

edited 4 hours ago

answered 5 hours ago

RubiksmooseRubiksmoose

58.4k10284433

$endgroup$

share|improve this answer

edited 4 hours ago

answered 5 hours ago

RubiksmooseRubiksmoose

58.4k10284433

answered 5 hours ago

RubiksmooseRubiksmoose

58.4k10284433

answered 5 hours ago

RubiksmooseRubiksmoose

58.4k10284433

0

$begingroup$

Just my $0.02, but while I see "unwilling" as the opposite of "willing", I think both words require consciousness. To be "unwilling" is to apply one's will to rejecting something. So it's not the logical negation of "willing".

One doesn't describe a sleeping person as 'unwilling'.

share|improve this answer

answered 1 hour ago

Mr. GuestMr. Guest

1

New contributor

Mr. Guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  "One doesn't describe a sleeping person as 'unwilling'." I'd strongly disagree: this ties your statement in my mind to consenting, and I would describe a sleeping person as inherently unconsenting. If that is not your intent, I'd encourage you to edit and clarify, as I expect the connection will drive a lot of negativity.
  $endgroup$
  – TemporalWolf
  1 hour ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance. And I totally agree with TemporalWolf's comment.
  $endgroup$
  – V2Blast
  54 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @TemporalWolf if we will use "unwilling" in the "actively opposed" sense, as Mr Guest is using it, then this has nothing to do with consent or lack of thereof. Consent and willingness are not perfect synonyms. Unconsenting always means lack of consent. Unwilling has two meanings actively used in language.
  $endgroup$
  – Mołot
  34 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @Mołot that's why I urged the OP to edit and clarify: I don't think he's wrong that unwilling has two potential meanings, it's just the specific example he used, at least for me, leads to a very negative connection.
  $endgroup$
  – TemporalWolf
  27 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

0

$begingroup$

Just my $0.02, but while I see "unwilling" as the opposite of "willing", I think both words require consciousness. To be "unwilling" is to apply one's will to rejecting something. So it's not the logical negation of "willing".

One doesn't describe a sleeping person as 'unwilling'.

share|improve this answer

answered 1 hour ago

Mr. GuestMr. Guest

1

New contributor

Mr. Guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  "One doesn't describe a sleeping person as 'unwilling'." I'd strongly disagree: this ties your statement in my mind to consenting, and I would describe a sleeping person as inherently unconsenting. If that is not your intent, I'd encourage you to edit and clarify, as I expect the connection will drive a lot of negativity.
  $endgroup$
  – TemporalWolf
  1 hour ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance. And I totally agree with TemporalWolf's comment.
  $endgroup$
  – V2Blast
  54 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @TemporalWolf if we will use "unwilling" in the "actively opposed" sense, as Mr Guest is using it, then this has nothing to do with consent or lack of thereof. Consent and willingness are not perfect synonyms. Unconsenting always means lack of consent. Unwilling has two meanings actively used in language.
  $endgroup$
  – Mołot
  34 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @Mołot that's why I urged the OP to edit and clarify: I don't think he's wrong that unwilling has two potential meanings, it's just the specific example he used, at least for me, leads to a very negative connection.
  $endgroup$
  – TemporalWolf
  27 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

$begingroup$

Just my $0.02, but while I see "unwilling" as the opposite of "willing", I think both words require consciousness. To be "unwilling" is to apply one's will to rejecting something. So it's not the logical negation of "willing".

One doesn't describe a sleeping person as 'unwilling'.

share|improve this answer

answered 1 hour ago

Mr. GuestMr. Guest

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Mr. Guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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$endgroup$

share|improve this answer

answered 1 hour ago

Mr. GuestMr. Guest

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New contributor

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answered 1 hour ago

Mr. GuestMr. Guest

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answered 1 hour ago

Mr. GuestMr. Guest

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