Could a US political party gain complete control over the government by removing checks & balances?
I was talking to a friend some time ago about American politics, political parties, etc. During this conversation, I thought of something:
- If a single party controlled both the house and senate, they could always pass a joint resolution
- If the president also belonged to said party, the bills would never get vetoed
- The president couldn't be impeached, since the house and senate are under control of the party
- Because of this, the party could make the supreme court judges "disappear" and appoint new ones. Despite suspicions, he/she couldn't be impeached
- The party can then pass any laws they like, pardon anyone they want (meaning they can do anything illegal and get away with it), and even pass constitutional amendments to extend their reign without the supreme court stopping them.
I'm absolutely certain I've overlooked something that would make this impossible, and people have said so, yet never been able to find a reason. Is this possible, and if not, what stops it from happening?
united-states parties
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I was talking to a friend some time ago about American politics, political parties, etc. During this conversation, I thought of something:
- If a single party controlled both the house and senate, they could always pass a joint resolution
- If the president also belonged to said party, the bills would never get vetoed
- The president couldn't be impeached, since the house and senate are under control of the party
- Because of this, the party could make the supreme court judges "disappear" and appoint new ones. Despite suspicions, he/she couldn't be impeached
- The party can then pass any laws they like, pardon anyone they want (meaning they can do anything illegal and get away with it), and even pass constitutional amendments to extend their reign without the supreme court stopping them.
I'm absolutely certain I've overlooked something that would make this impossible, and people have said so, yet never been able to find a reason. Is this possible, and if not, what stops it from happening?
united-states parties
New contributor
12
Making a constitutional amendment also also requires the agreement of three quarters of the states. Unless enough states' legislatures (or possibly state ratifying conventions) are also of the same party (or in agreement with it), changing the constitution could be tough.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
18
This question has attracted two downvotes and a vote to close, apparently without any explanatory comment. Yet the question goes to the heart of the US constitution and would be a perfect opportunity to explain how and why -- and to what extent -- the constitution addresses this issue. The question deserves an answer and the Redwolf Programs deserves to know what people's reservations about the question are, to have an opportunity to address them.
– phoog
yesterday
@SteveMelnikoff Might want to post an answer, that's a pretty good point.
– Redwolf Programs
yesterday
4
Read up on the political history of the 1930s - FDR had a mostly compliant legislature and was only sometimes stymied by the supreme court, which he cowed into accepting absurd positions on the threat that he would just expand the number of judges until he had enough to just do what he wanted anyway. Fortunately he didn't go quite that far, but it was very close. And as always, the court can make a ruling, but can it enforce it?
– pluckedkiwi
17 hours ago
In short: yes. If you actually have a whole party that 1) gets elected in vast numbers and 2) doesn't mind ruining the democracy and making the president a dictator then yes it's possible. Although you need a supermajority to make some major changes.
– xyious
15 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
I was talking to a friend some time ago about American politics, political parties, etc. During this conversation, I thought of something:
- If a single party controlled both the house and senate, they could always pass a joint resolution
- If the president also belonged to said party, the bills would never get vetoed
- The president couldn't be impeached, since the house and senate are under control of the party
- Because of this, the party could make the supreme court judges "disappear" and appoint new ones. Despite suspicions, he/she couldn't be impeached
- The party can then pass any laws they like, pardon anyone they want (meaning they can do anything illegal and get away with it), and even pass constitutional amendments to extend their reign without the supreme court stopping them.
I'm absolutely certain I've overlooked something that would make this impossible, and people have said so, yet never been able to find a reason. Is this possible, and if not, what stops it from happening?
united-states parties
New contributor
I was talking to a friend some time ago about American politics, political parties, etc. During this conversation, I thought of something:
- If a single party controlled both the house and senate, they could always pass a joint resolution
- If the president also belonged to said party, the bills would never get vetoed
- The president couldn't be impeached, since the house and senate are under control of the party
- Because of this, the party could make the supreme court judges "disappear" and appoint new ones. Despite suspicions, he/she couldn't be impeached
- The party can then pass any laws they like, pardon anyone they want (meaning they can do anything illegal and get away with it), and even pass constitutional amendments to extend their reign without the supreme court stopping them.
I'm absolutely certain I've overlooked something that would make this impossible, and people have said so, yet never been able to find a reason. Is this possible, and if not, what stops it from happening?
united-states parties
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12
Making a constitutional amendment also also requires the agreement of three quarters of the states. Unless enough states' legislatures (or possibly state ratifying conventions) are also of the same party (or in agreement with it), changing the constitution could be tough.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
18
This question has attracted two downvotes and a vote to close, apparently without any explanatory comment. Yet the question goes to the heart of the US constitution and would be a perfect opportunity to explain how and why -- and to what extent -- the constitution addresses this issue. The question deserves an answer and the Redwolf Programs deserves to know what people's reservations about the question are, to have an opportunity to address them.
– phoog
yesterday
@SteveMelnikoff Might want to post an answer, that's a pretty good point.
– Redwolf Programs
yesterday
4
Read up on the political history of the 1930s - FDR had a mostly compliant legislature and was only sometimes stymied by the supreme court, which he cowed into accepting absurd positions on the threat that he would just expand the number of judges until he had enough to just do what he wanted anyway. Fortunately he didn't go quite that far, but it was very close. And as always, the court can make a ruling, but can it enforce it?
– pluckedkiwi
17 hours ago
In short: yes. If you actually have a whole party that 1) gets elected in vast numbers and 2) doesn't mind ruining the democracy and making the president a dictator then yes it's possible. Although you need a supermajority to make some major changes.
– xyious
15 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
12
Making a constitutional amendment also also requires the agreement of three quarters of the states. Unless enough states' legislatures (or possibly state ratifying conventions) are also of the same party (or in agreement with it), changing the constitution could be tough.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
18
This question has attracted two downvotes and a vote to close, apparently without any explanatory comment. Yet the question goes to the heart of the US constitution and would be a perfect opportunity to explain how and why -- and to what extent -- the constitution addresses this issue. The question deserves an answer and the Redwolf Programs deserves to know what people's reservations about the question are, to have an opportunity to address them.
– phoog
yesterday
@SteveMelnikoff Might want to post an answer, that's a pretty good point.
– Redwolf Programs
yesterday
4
Read up on the political history of the 1930s - FDR had a mostly compliant legislature and was only sometimes stymied by the supreme court, which he cowed into accepting absurd positions on the threat that he would just expand the number of judges until he had enough to just do what he wanted anyway. Fortunately he didn't go quite that far, but it was very close. And as always, the court can make a ruling, but can it enforce it?
– pluckedkiwi
17 hours ago
In short: yes. If you actually have a whole party that 1) gets elected in vast numbers and 2) doesn't mind ruining the democracy and making the president a dictator then yes it's possible. Although you need a supermajority to make some major changes.
– xyious
15 hours ago
12
12
Making a constitutional amendment also also requires the agreement of three quarters of the states. Unless enough states' legislatures (or possibly state ratifying conventions) are also of the same party (or in agreement with it), changing the constitution could be tough.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
Making a constitutional amendment also also requires the agreement of three quarters of the states. Unless enough states' legislatures (or possibly state ratifying conventions) are also of the same party (or in agreement with it), changing the constitution could be tough.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
18
18
This question has attracted two downvotes and a vote to close, apparently without any explanatory comment. Yet the question goes to the heart of the US constitution and would be a perfect opportunity to explain how and why -- and to what extent -- the constitution addresses this issue. The question deserves an answer and the Redwolf Programs deserves to know what people's reservations about the question are, to have an opportunity to address them.
– phoog
yesterday
This question has attracted two downvotes and a vote to close, apparently without any explanatory comment. Yet the question goes to the heart of the US constitution and would be a perfect opportunity to explain how and why -- and to what extent -- the constitution addresses this issue. The question deserves an answer and the Redwolf Programs deserves to know what people's reservations about the question are, to have an opportunity to address them.
– phoog
yesterday
@SteveMelnikoff Might want to post an answer, that's a pretty good point.
– Redwolf Programs
yesterday
@SteveMelnikoff Might want to post an answer, that's a pretty good point.
– Redwolf Programs
yesterday
4
4
Read up on the political history of the 1930s - FDR had a mostly compliant legislature and was only sometimes stymied by the supreme court, which he cowed into accepting absurd positions on the threat that he would just expand the number of judges until he had enough to just do what he wanted anyway. Fortunately he didn't go quite that far, but it was very close. And as always, the court can make a ruling, but can it enforce it?
– pluckedkiwi
17 hours ago
Read up on the political history of the 1930s - FDR had a mostly compliant legislature and was only sometimes stymied by the supreme court, which he cowed into accepting absurd positions on the threat that he would just expand the number of judges until he had enough to just do what he wanted anyway. Fortunately he didn't go quite that far, but it was very close. And as always, the court can make a ruling, but can it enforce it?
– pluckedkiwi
17 hours ago
In short: yes. If you actually have a whole party that 1) gets elected in vast numbers and 2) doesn't mind ruining the democracy and making the president a dictator then yes it's possible. Although you need a supermajority to make some major changes.
– xyious
15 hours ago
In short: yes. If you actually have a whole party that 1) gets elected in vast numbers and 2) doesn't mind ruining the democracy and making the president a dictator then yes it's possible. Although you need a supermajority to make some major changes.
– xyious
15 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
8 Answers
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Institutions and constitutional arrangements are important as they provide a buffer against temporary excesses, but the ultimate check is civil society, really. Otherwise look at Hungary, Turkey, etc. No amount of paper institutions is going to prevent a slide into something like that. Unless enough people say no.
There have been a lot of papers on instability in democracies and (temporary) reverts to authoritarianism. In general, a long democratic history is good predictor of non-reversals. Here's one such paper:
I present a new empirical approach to the study of democratic consolidation. I distinguish between democracies that survive because
they are consolidated and those democracies that are not consolidated but survive because of
some favorable circumstances. As a result, I can identify the determinants of two related yet
distinct processes: the likelihood that a democracy consolidates, and the timing of
authoritarian reversals in democracies that are not consolidated. I find that the level of
economic development, type of democratic executive, and type of authoritarian past determine
whether a democracy consolidates, but have no effect on the timing of reversals in democracies
that are not consolidated. That risk is only associated with economic recessions.
As an aside: I think the US Supreme Court can still be padded, no need to kill anyone.
18
+1 for sidestepping the technicals and getting to the heart of the matter. The Constitution was made to serve a civil society and doesn't work for any other kind. Tyrants don't typically care about the rules, so the law is only as good as the lengths to which people will go to defend it.
– Wes Sayeed
yesterday
1
@BurnsBA: No, I did mean Hungary, although Poland is also a reasonable example. In the paper you mention their baseline is the first of democracy, which can be pretty misleading as to what happened in-between. Poland "eroded" because according to that data it was more democratic in 1991 than in 2017, whereas Hungary stayed the same relative to 1990. But the scores of Poland and Hungary in 2017 are virtually the same, so the difference is explained by the score in 1990/1991. I think few would claim that Hungary has not regressed under Orban relative to the time they were admitted in the EU.
– Fizz
16 hours ago
1
Er, yeah, I reread the paper. "The resulting regimes allow for elections with an accurate vote count, although usually not a fair playing field. In the 2010s, Hungary and Bolivia have exemplified this path. Both countries made major advances during their first two decades as democracies, but power-hungry executives have since presided over the corrosion of liberal democracy. Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orbán and Bolivian president Evo Morales have chipped away at opposition rights and checks and balances since taking office in 2010 and 2006, respectively."
– BurnsBA
15 hours ago
I'll accept this in a few hours, just making sure no other good answers come in
– Redwolf Programs
12 hours ago
add a comment |
Because of this, the party could make the supreme court judges "disappear" and appoint new ones. Despite suspicions, he/she couldn't be impeached
This is the specific step in your chain where your thinking goes into crazy town.
Let's be clear that "disappearing" judges is a euphemism for murdering them. Murder of federal officials for a political purpose is an extremely serious crime in the United States, which despite current partisan antics, still has functioning rule of law. Murders are crimes that are too serious not to be investigated, especially if they are serial murders of a specific class of victim which have a motive that is too obvious to ignore. The number of murders that would be required to significantly tip the balance of the judicial branch is at least 4, and likely very many more because the Supreme Court is not the only court that would need to be controlled in order to nullify the judicial branch's checks and balances on the other branches of government.
Attempting to stop a serial murder investigation into the deaths or disappearances of federal judges would be highly scandalous. Eventually the investigation would find some of the participants in the plot, because the sheer number of murders you'd have to get away with would be nearly impossible. At that point, the existence of the scheme being discovered by the public would completely change the earlier assumptions you made in your story, namely:
The president couldn't be impeached, since the house and senate are under control of the party
"I knew about this giant murder scheme to murder federal judges and was planning to let it happen, re-elect me so I can continue this great work" is not a very compelling re-election campaign message. If the President was somehow identified to be part of this scandal, then the obvious thing for any given House member is to impeach the President, and any given Senate member is to vote for removal, purely out of their own selfish interest so they don't get tarred with the thing when they face re-election.
Finally, it's worth noting that the situation you describe in the beginning has happened many times before in America; there have been many periods where one party controls the House, Senate, and the Presidency, yet nothing like this has ever taken place. That should be your first clue that you're missing something. The Democrats have had something like 26 years of full control during the 20th century (mostly during the depression and the 60's) and the Republicans had a few years also in the 2000's, yet there's been no complicated judicial murder schemes in any of those periods.
3
No need to murder the judges one by one, "just" let terrorists blow up the whole court when in session.
– Martin Schröder
17 hours ago
1
@MartinSchroder Terrorist incidents leave much more evidence behind than simple murders. Also, there are 94 Federal district courts across the country, most of them inside Federal buildings with high security for the express purpose of preventing a terrorist attack such as you describe. Nefarious people in the government couldn't "just" let this many terrorist strikes take place and get away with it.
– Joe
14 hours ago
4
@cpcodes Really? Some think Trump's disregard for legalistic convention is enough evidence to suggest he's just chomping at the bit to murder his enemies? And people say Trump derangement syndrome doesn't exist.
– eyeballfrog
13 hours ago
3
@eyeballfrog I'm characterizing the views of others, not my own concerning Trump, but his flouting of convention refutes the statement that it is unlikely simply because it has never happened before - i.e. even for things which are commonplace today, there was once a first time. Further, the exact method of the taking over of the government is incidental (whether murder is required), the meat of the question is whether complete control of the presidency and the houses could provide an exploitable foothold to take over all three branches of government and then (presumably) become authoritarian.
– cpcodes
13 hours ago
2
@cpcodes Trump's rhetorical excesses which are a product of his rampant narcissism have not produced any unprecedented policy excesses that undermine the constitutional order of the United States.
– Joe
13 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
A couple things are worth considering in this scenario.
First of all, this scenario assumes that some party can manage to convince an overwhelming majority of the populace, and the states, to vote for it. That's quite a tall order already. Granted, extremely one-sided senatorial elections have happened. For example, in the 1936 elections, Democrats controlled 74 seats, and Republicans controlled 17. The House of Representative elections was similarly one-sided. That's more than the needed 2/3 majority to approve a constitutional amendment. That being said, those were very different times. The election was at the same time as the presidential elections, and essentially became an election about the New Deal. In the context of the Great Depression, it's not too surprising that the vote was this lopsided. Some pretty cataclysmic events would have to occur to get such one-sided elections again. For context, in the 2016 Senate elections, Democrats won 46 seats, and Republicans won 52. In the House elections, Republicans won 241 seats, and Democrats won 194. The point is, the votes are extremely close right now. We are no where near the 2/3 mark.
Second, 3/4 of the states need to approve Constitutional amendments (such as one needed to change the size of the Supreme Court). That's a lot of states. For either party, there's a dedicated core of states that will never "fall" to the opposing party. Here's a map of "Red" and "Blue" states:
You'll notice that while Republicans control many rural states, it's still fairly evenly matched. As I mentioned previously, it would take some pretty cataclysmic events to cause a change drastic enough to give one side a 3/4 majority. A sufficiently serious natural disaster or terrorist attack might do it, but I'm fairly doubtful that even in that case you'd see large enough changes.
Third, you have to consider what population you're talking about. Because of a combination of factors, Americans have had a somewhat unique fixation on freedom, and a particularly potent loathing towards surrendering rights to the government for any reason. There are many who claim that even current government policies are tyrannical, and that's without any party attempting to become tyrants. While it's certainly true that private citizens aren't a great army, there's a lot of them. America has a very high amount of weapons per capita, and a large portion of the population own weapons. Granted, many would not have the initiative to rise up against a government. I suspect, however, that enough would to cause serious damage. After all, the war in Vietnam should be a lesson in how effective untrained civilians can be.
To sum things up, I think that it's essentially impossible for this to happen politically. If it indeed does occur, I expect that this regime would be an extremely unstable one. They would have to deal with incessant civilian insurgencies, and would have to find a way to govern a population which is armed and ideologically opposed to its rulers. On the other hand, "it couldn't happen here" were the last words of very many people throughout history. It's certainly an interesting topic to think about.
7
I strongly object to the "will never fall" line. Parties evolve over time, and their coalitions change with that. There were extremely lopsided results in 1980, 1984, and 1988, and the 1976 map looks nothing like the modern one. Democrats won most of the South (including Texas) and Republicans won the entire west of the country (including California). Sure, that was 40 years ago, but what do you expect the map to look like in another 40 years? That said, I think the third part of this answer is quite good.
– Bobson
yesterday
4
You say "untrained civilians," but the US has a lot of combat veterans and a significant percentage privately own weapons. If even a small percentage of them decide to become insurgents they'll train all the other insurgents. It may not be to the same extent that the regular army gets, but they have the advantage of only needing to be trained to defend their home turf.
– IllusiveBrian
yesterday
2
Also, I think there's one more thing the answer leaves out - if the government were plainly corrupt and attempted to use the military and intelligence agencies to exert their rule, they would have mass desertions on their hands, and even worse a lot of insider threats.
– IllusiveBrian
yesterday
7
2nd paragraph contains an error: "... the states need to approve Constitutional amendments (such as one needed to change the size of the Supreme Court.)" A Constitutional amendment is not required to change the size of the Supreme Court. It can be done through the normal lawmaking process (and has been done several times throughout U.S. history).
– Wes Sayeed
yesterday
4
"For context, in the 2016 Senate elections, Democrats won 46 seats, and Republicans won 52." That's badly put. In any given Congressional election year, about 1/3 of the Senate seats are at stake. The other 2/3 are already filled by people who were elected 2 years earlier or 4 years earlier, and still have time left in their six-year terms before they will need to worry about running for re-election (or choosing not to run). So the Democrats did not "win" 46 seats all at once -- they just won enough to end up with a grand total of 46, many of which they already had before Election Day 2016.
– Lorendiac
16 hours ago
|
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In addition to the good points raised by other answers, it's worth noting that political parties are not monolithic. When a party with a preponderance of power comes close to the line of abusing that power, sometimes members of the party appear to stop it, or at least slow it down. Not always, but sometimes. Examples in the last decade or so include Jim Webb, who asked the Senate to delay voting on Obamacare until Scott Brown was seated. It's reasonable to argue either way as to whether or not this actually stopped an abuse, as the Democrats then responded by using reconciliation, which was intended as a budget-balancing rule, to pass Obamacare without 60 Senate votes, but the point remains that Webb had a certain sense of propriety which, to him, was more important than the exercise of raw power.
The Republicans have not recently held a preponderance of power (Presidency + House control + 60 Senate votes) similar to what the Democrats had in 2009. However, there are abundant signs that if a similar situation were to occur, there are Republicans who would act in a similar way. Senator Mitt Romney, for example, has no problem writing scathing criticism of Trump, or, for that matter, supporting him, depending on how Romney sees a particular situation. Going further back, the Republicans turned against President Nixon when the evidence against him became damning.
2
You might want to clarify what you mean in the last paragraph. I assume you mean that even though Republicans had control of both chambers and the Presidency for the last two years, they didn't have a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.
– Bobson
18 hours ago
I was going to answer about this very thing. You'll actually find that it's rather hard for the party in power to do anything because the opposition party is usually ideologicially concentrated to the party hard core because they are safe seats while the party in power is ideologically weak because they have moderate members who won in a swing district and have to play closer to a middle ground in hopes of re-election. During Obamacare debates, GOP was united in it's opposition, while Democrats had a tough time winning their own member's votes.
– hszmv
15 hours ago
political parties are not monolithic +1. Meaning, they will do what they can to appease their party, but they will do whatever needs done to get reelected by their constitutes. And if they're any good at their job, they're playing the long game, where you don't rock your own boat.
– Mazura
6 hours ago
add a comment |
Your "disappear" comment seems to miss a point. The size of the supreme court is a matter of statute. The size of each US state is a matter of statute.
It is perfectly legal under the US constitution to appoint another 100 supreme court justices of the president's and senate's choice, assuming they get the support of congress.
Similarly, it is perfectly legal under the US constitution to make Bob and Alice's house (and their daughter, Eve) in (for example) Texas its own US State, with 2 Senators and a Congressman. Or do this 1000 times, generating 2000 new Senators and 1000 new Congresscritters, all belonging to states with 3 or more people in them (I don't think you can legally sit in both the House and the Senate, so 3 is minimal; you could do it a town at a time instead, or a county, or whatever).
With that large a majority, rewriting the US constitution becomes trivial; even before that, with that large a majority on the supreme court, ridiculous rulings saying anything that faction wants to do is constitutional is trivial.
This can all be done with the consent of any one 1 US State (any US State -- that is the state where you do the 'spawn 3 person states' in) and a majority in the US Senate & Congress and the US Presidency on-board.
A piece of paper is never a shield against tyranny. At best it can make it more obvious when someone wants to become a tyrant.
What stops this from happening?
- The expectation that people will simply not obey.
- The people winning the current political game aren't eager grab the board and flip it over (which is what this is); the current political-economic setup means winners are winning. Build a new one, and they might not be winning in it.
- Revolutionary times tend to be really dangerous and bloody, even for the nominally powerful before or during the revolution.
- Actual faith in democratic institutions among the powerful.
Like most power struggles, when power seems to be passed from one group to another it gets the most dangerous. The traditional power center still has power and sees it going away, so it uses that power to lash out at the new power center. Or the new power center gains power and doesn't have the same incentives to keep things stable.
Danger signs could be a political party deligitimizing democratic norms ("We aren't a democracy", or "It isn't illegal so it is ok"), a political party with reasons to believe it is becoming obsolete, or a new demographic group gaining relative wealth compared to the rest of society (some interesting recent research has shown that minority gaining economic power often leads to oppression, even if the majority isn't losing economic power).
1
Good points. One comment, though: in the context of American politics, it's important to be cognizant of the difference between "democratic" and "Democratic," and "republican" and "Republican." Your last paragraph is referring to "democracy," the concept, not "Democrats," the party, right?
– Jon of All Trades
16 hours ago
@JonofAllTrades Yes. Caps fixed.
– Yakk
16 hours ago
1
Downvoting for the Alice and Bob's house example. This would not be legal under the constitution because the Constitution prohibits the partitioning of a state of the union into two states unless the Current State and proposed New State agree to the partitioning. Congress cannot break Michigan into the states of Glove and Not Glove unless the Glove territory and Not Glove Territory agree to such a division. Also your examples of legitimizing Democratic Norms are problematic, but I do not have space to go into specific issues.
– hszmv
15 hours ago
1
@hszmv 2 paragraphs down I listed the requirement of consent of "1 US State (any US State)". Is that too confusing? I could move requirements before the description of the act.
– Yakk
15 hours ago
2
@hszmv I'm not seeing further value in engaging with you. If you cannot understand my answer, feel free to downvote (which I believe you have) and move on. If anyone else finds something unclear, I'd be glad to discuss it with you.
– Yakk
12 hours ago
|
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In a democratic system like the United States, control of the government ultimately belongs to one group of people: the voting citizenry. Eliminating checks and balances would at best give you temporary control of government processes. A more likely case would be that the voters would revolt at the next election and the opposing party would sweep nearly every open seat. Instead of gaining absolute control for yourself, you gave it to your opponents who now have an electoral mandate to punish those who destroyed the system. This is likely a lot worse for you than if you never messed with the system at all.
The constitution also allows for the people to propose and pass amendments even when the entire federal government opposes them, so a united populace can go over your head and undo anything that you try to do.
The only way to gain complete control is to remove elections. As long as you're accountable to someone, that someone can always hold you accountable. And they will.
add a comment |
Is this possible, and if not, what stops it from happening?
I want to say a few words about "what stops it from happening" and point out a short academic paper from January that has a little bit of insight. The paper looks at countries that transitioned to democracy in recent history then compares where they are today, and what factors might contribute to that change. Not directly comparable to the United States, but hopefully still offers some insight.
The paper divides these changes into several categories, though the ones relevant to this discussion are breakdowns, erosions (similar to breakdown, but still have "reasonably free and fair elections" where "fair" simply means an accurate vote count), and stagnations.
(a detour to discuss action to "stop it from happening")
I wanted to highlight one line from the description of the "breakdown" category that says
The most common route to breakdown among third-wave democracies, however, has been an incremental path without a clear breaking point.
This reminds me of the Douglas quote:
As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air — however slight — lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
- To Young Lawyers Section of the Washington State Bar Association, The Douglas Letters : Selections from the Private Papers of Justice William O. Douglas (1987), edited by Melvin I. Urofsky and Philip E. Urofsky, p. 162.
I would look into the answers at What is the most effective way to participate democratically as a regular citizen in a stable parliamentary democracy? and How can the common citizen defend democracy principles? for further reflection.
(back to the paper, and discussing causes)
They do some analysis on the data and report on the results:
Our calculations showed that regimes that started off with a higher level of liberal democracy, that were geographically surrounded by democracies, and that experienced better rates of economic growth were less likely to break down ...
Interestingly, they find the connection "inconclusive" between democracy breakdown and being a wealthier country. They also give the disappointing note
Against expectations, prior democratic history and levels of state capacity show no association with breakdowns.
My takeaway from the paper is that in order for democracy to survive, there needs to be internal and external pressure to help "push" it along. (Note, I phrase this as "pressure" since this is all dependent on country, culture, and current moment in history, and really none of this should be taken in absolutes).
What I mean by external pressure is interaction with other/neighboring countries should be smooth. I think this is primarily based on economics, and what system of government would allow this. I already got sidetracked here and cut a few paragraphs not entirely relevant, but I just want to note that this is not just economics focused on goods, but other aspects such as citizens working across a border or overseas, immigration and emigration, trade agreements, monetary and fiscal policy, etc. and how a particular form of government might affect those things.
Internal pressure would be citizen involvement (I think @Fizz answer highlights this nicely), but also checks and balances. The paper I cite here makes a passing reference to Uribe in Colombia, where the Constitutional Court rejected a referendum that would have allowed him to run for a 3rd term. These kinds of checks and balances are important to avoid descent into autocracy, which I think is the main concern of the original question.
Reference:
Mainwaring, Scott & Bizzarro, Fernando. "The Fates of Third-Wave Democracies." Journal of Democracy, vol. 30 no. 1, 2019, pp. 99-113. Project MUSE, doi:10.1353/jod.2019.0008
or online at https://muse.jhu.edu/article/713726
add a comment |
I think the answer to your question is essentially: "yes". If a political party or a bipartisan group decided to overthrow the basics of the Constitutional system, no one could realistically stop them short of an actual popular revolution.
I think the most obvious reason as to why nothing like this has really happened is that "democracies" rely on the supposed validity of the "democratic process" to justify the fact that they can engage in what would otherwise be seen as tyrannical and illegal.
I think if we had a draft, massive taxation, an NSA and CIA that spy on us and overthrow other nations' governments without any formal declaration of war, and there was no pretense to Democracy, anyone would immediately identify that regime as tyrannical. But because we have a vote every so often for some of the people involved, we have been conditioned to believe that their actions reflect "the will of the people" in some mystical sense. Actions that the government takes even now would, if done by any other organization, be seen as criminal. So why do we put up with it? Because we believe that the oligarchy run by the RNC and the DNC is somehow democratically chosen and in a broad sense "fairly".
If either party were to try to strong-arm everyone in this way, they would lose their legitimacy and the current relatively benign populace might stop accepting the actions of the government. There would be massive civil unrest.
However, a deeper reason why no party does this is because the two parties are just not that different. This means they have no reason to actually do something so extreme. The news makes it sound like they are polar opposites, but usually its just a matter of degree. The Republicans want to invade 3 countries, the Democrats want only to invade 2, and do a "police action" in another. The Democrats want to increase Social Security payments by 4%, the Republicans want to increase it by 3.25%.
These ludicrously tiny differences are paired with highly emotional rhetoric to give you the idea that you are choosing between night and day, but we are not given the option to pick someone who has genuinely different views: witness the DNC's sidelining of Bernie Sanders and manipulation of the primaries to ensure that we got another corporatist warhawk in Hillary Clinton.
They do little bits here and there to try and show the country how different they are from the other side, but when the cameras go off, they sit down and hash out a deal that gives them both red meat to throw to their base and enriches them and their friends at our expense.
The following is from: The Facist Threat
I wouldn't say that we truly have a dictatorship of one man in this country, but we do have a form of dictatorship of one sector of
government over the entire country. The executive branch has spread so
dramatically over the last century that it has become a joke to speak
of checks and balances. What the kids learn in civics class has
nothing to do with reality.
The executive state is the state as we know it, all flowing from the
White House down. The role of the courts is to enforce the will of the
executive. The role of the legislature is to ratify the policy of the
executive.
Further, this executive is not really about the person who seems to be
in charge. The president is only the veneer, and the elections are
only the tribal rituals we undergo to confer some legitimacy on the
institution. In reality, the nation-state lives and thrives outside
any "democratic mandate." Here we find the power to regulate all
aspects of life and the wicked power to create the money necessary to
fund this executive rule.
As for the leadership principle, there is no greater lie in American
public life than the propaganda we hear every four years about how the
new president/messiah is going to usher in the great dispensation of
peace, equality, liberty, and global human happiness. The idea here is
that the whole of society is really shaped and controlled by a single
will — a point that requires a leap of faith so vast that you have to
disregard everything you know about reality to believe it.
And yet people do. The hope for a messiah reached a fevered pitch with
Obama's election. The civic religion was in full-scale worship mode —
of the greatest human who ever lived or ever shall live. It was a
despicable display.
Another lie that the American people believe is that presidential
elections bring about regime change. This is sheer nonsense. The Obama
state is the Bush state; the Bush state was the Clinton state; the
Clinton state was the Bush state; the Bush state was the Reagan state.
We can trace this back and back in time and see overlapping
appointments, bureaucrats, technicians, diplomats, Fed officials,
financial elites, and so on. Rotation in office occurs not because of
elections but because of mortality.
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Institutions and constitutional arrangements are important as they provide a buffer against temporary excesses, but the ultimate check is civil society, really. Otherwise look at Hungary, Turkey, etc. No amount of paper institutions is going to prevent a slide into something like that. Unless enough people say no.
There have been a lot of papers on instability in democracies and (temporary) reverts to authoritarianism. In general, a long democratic history is good predictor of non-reversals. Here's one such paper:
I present a new empirical approach to the study of democratic consolidation. I distinguish between democracies that survive because
they are consolidated and those democracies that are not consolidated but survive because of
some favorable circumstances. As a result, I can identify the determinants of two related yet
distinct processes: the likelihood that a democracy consolidates, and the timing of
authoritarian reversals in democracies that are not consolidated. I find that the level of
economic development, type of democratic executive, and type of authoritarian past determine
whether a democracy consolidates, but have no effect on the timing of reversals in democracies
that are not consolidated. That risk is only associated with economic recessions.
As an aside: I think the US Supreme Court can still be padded, no need to kill anyone.
18
+1 for sidestepping the technicals and getting to the heart of the matter. The Constitution was made to serve a civil society and doesn't work for any other kind. Tyrants don't typically care about the rules, so the law is only as good as the lengths to which people will go to defend it.
– Wes Sayeed
yesterday
1
@BurnsBA: No, I did mean Hungary, although Poland is also a reasonable example. In the paper you mention their baseline is the first of democracy, which can be pretty misleading as to what happened in-between. Poland "eroded" because according to that data it was more democratic in 1991 than in 2017, whereas Hungary stayed the same relative to 1990. But the scores of Poland and Hungary in 2017 are virtually the same, so the difference is explained by the score in 1990/1991. I think few would claim that Hungary has not regressed under Orban relative to the time they were admitted in the EU.
– Fizz
16 hours ago
1
Er, yeah, I reread the paper. "The resulting regimes allow for elections with an accurate vote count, although usually not a fair playing field. In the 2010s, Hungary and Bolivia have exemplified this path. Both countries made major advances during their first two decades as democracies, but power-hungry executives have since presided over the corrosion of liberal democracy. Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orbán and Bolivian president Evo Morales have chipped away at opposition rights and checks and balances since taking office in 2010 and 2006, respectively."
– BurnsBA
15 hours ago
I'll accept this in a few hours, just making sure no other good answers come in
– Redwolf Programs
12 hours ago
add a comment |
Institutions and constitutional arrangements are important as they provide a buffer against temporary excesses, but the ultimate check is civil society, really. Otherwise look at Hungary, Turkey, etc. No amount of paper institutions is going to prevent a slide into something like that. Unless enough people say no.
There have been a lot of papers on instability in democracies and (temporary) reverts to authoritarianism. In general, a long democratic history is good predictor of non-reversals. Here's one such paper:
I present a new empirical approach to the study of democratic consolidation. I distinguish between democracies that survive because
they are consolidated and those democracies that are not consolidated but survive because of
some favorable circumstances. As a result, I can identify the determinants of two related yet
distinct processes: the likelihood that a democracy consolidates, and the timing of
authoritarian reversals in democracies that are not consolidated. I find that the level of
economic development, type of democratic executive, and type of authoritarian past determine
whether a democracy consolidates, but have no effect on the timing of reversals in democracies
that are not consolidated. That risk is only associated with economic recessions.
As an aside: I think the US Supreme Court can still be padded, no need to kill anyone.
18
+1 for sidestepping the technicals and getting to the heart of the matter. The Constitution was made to serve a civil society and doesn't work for any other kind. Tyrants don't typically care about the rules, so the law is only as good as the lengths to which people will go to defend it.
– Wes Sayeed
yesterday
1
@BurnsBA: No, I did mean Hungary, although Poland is also a reasonable example. In the paper you mention their baseline is the first of democracy, which can be pretty misleading as to what happened in-between. Poland "eroded" because according to that data it was more democratic in 1991 than in 2017, whereas Hungary stayed the same relative to 1990. But the scores of Poland and Hungary in 2017 are virtually the same, so the difference is explained by the score in 1990/1991. I think few would claim that Hungary has not regressed under Orban relative to the time they were admitted in the EU.
– Fizz
16 hours ago
1
Er, yeah, I reread the paper. "The resulting regimes allow for elections with an accurate vote count, although usually not a fair playing field. In the 2010s, Hungary and Bolivia have exemplified this path. Both countries made major advances during their first two decades as democracies, but power-hungry executives have since presided over the corrosion of liberal democracy. Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orbán and Bolivian president Evo Morales have chipped away at opposition rights and checks and balances since taking office in 2010 and 2006, respectively."
– BurnsBA
15 hours ago
I'll accept this in a few hours, just making sure no other good answers come in
– Redwolf Programs
12 hours ago
add a comment |
Institutions and constitutional arrangements are important as they provide a buffer against temporary excesses, but the ultimate check is civil society, really. Otherwise look at Hungary, Turkey, etc. No amount of paper institutions is going to prevent a slide into something like that. Unless enough people say no.
There have been a lot of papers on instability in democracies and (temporary) reverts to authoritarianism. In general, a long democratic history is good predictor of non-reversals. Here's one such paper:
I present a new empirical approach to the study of democratic consolidation. I distinguish between democracies that survive because
they are consolidated and those democracies that are not consolidated but survive because of
some favorable circumstances. As a result, I can identify the determinants of two related yet
distinct processes: the likelihood that a democracy consolidates, and the timing of
authoritarian reversals in democracies that are not consolidated. I find that the level of
economic development, type of democratic executive, and type of authoritarian past determine
whether a democracy consolidates, but have no effect on the timing of reversals in democracies
that are not consolidated. That risk is only associated with economic recessions.
As an aside: I think the US Supreme Court can still be padded, no need to kill anyone.
Institutions and constitutional arrangements are important as they provide a buffer against temporary excesses, but the ultimate check is civil society, really. Otherwise look at Hungary, Turkey, etc. No amount of paper institutions is going to prevent a slide into something like that. Unless enough people say no.
There have been a lot of papers on instability in democracies and (temporary) reverts to authoritarianism. In general, a long democratic history is good predictor of non-reversals. Here's one such paper:
I present a new empirical approach to the study of democratic consolidation. I distinguish between democracies that survive because
they are consolidated and those democracies that are not consolidated but survive because of
some favorable circumstances. As a result, I can identify the determinants of two related yet
distinct processes: the likelihood that a democracy consolidates, and the timing of
authoritarian reversals in democracies that are not consolidated. I find that the level of
economic development, type of democratic executive, and type of authoritarian past determine
whether a democracy consolidates, but have no effect on the timing of reversals in democracies
that are not consolidated. That risk is only associated with economic recessions.
As an aside: I think the US Supreme Court can still be padded, no need to kill anyone.
answered yesterday
FizzFizz
14.2k23490
14.2k23490
18
+1 for sidestepping the technicals and getting to the heart of the matter. The Constitution was made to serve a civil society and doesn't work for any other kind. Tyrants don't typically care about the rules, so the law is only as good as the lengths to which people will go to defend it.
– Wes Sayeed
yesterday
1
@BurnsBA: No, I did mean Hungary, although Poland is also a reasonable example. In the paper you mention their baseline is the first of democracy, which can be pretty misleading as to what happened in-between. Poland "eroded" because according to that data it was more democratic in 1991 than in 2017, whereas Hungary stayed the same relative to 1990. But the scores of Poland and Hungary in 2017 are virtually the same, so the difference is explained by the score in 1990/1991. I think few would claim that Hungary has not regressed under Orban relative to the time they were admitted in the EU.
– Fizz
16 hours ago
1
Er, yeah, I reread the paper. "The resulting regimes allow for elections with an accurate vote count, although usually not a fair playing field. In the 2010s, Hungary and Bolivia have exemplified this path. Both countries made major advances during their first two decades as democracies, but power-hungry executives have since presided over the corrosion of liberal democracy. Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orbán and Bolivian president Evo Morales have chipped away at opposition rights and checks and balances since taking office in 2010 and 2006, respectively."
– BurnsBA
15 hours ago
I'll accept this in a few hours, just making sure no other good answers come in
– Redwolf Programs
12 hours ago
add a comment |
18
+1 for sidestepping the technicals and getting to the heart of the matter. The Constitution was made to serve a civil society and doesn't work for any other kind. Tyrants don't typically care about the rules, so the law is only as good as the lengths to which people will go to defend it.
– Wes Sayeed
yesterday
1
@BurnsBA: No, I did mean Hungary, although Poland is also a reasonable example. In the paper you mention their baseline is the first of democracy, which can be pretty misleading as to what happened in-between. Poland "eroded" because according to that data it was more democratic in 1991 than in 2017, whereas Hungary stayed the same relative to 1990. But the scores of Poland and Hungary in 2017 are virtually the same, so the difference is explained by the score in 1990/1991. I think few would claim that Hungary has not regressed under Orban relative to the time they were admitted in the EU.
– Fizz
16 hours ago
1
Er, yeah, I reread the paper. "The resulting regimes allow for elections with an accurate vote count, although usually not a fair playing field. In the 2010s, Hungary and Bolivia have exemplified this path. Both countries made major advances during their first two decades as democracies, but power-hungry executives have since presided over the corrosion of liberal democracy. Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orbán and Bolivian president Evo Morales have chipped away at opposition rights and checks and balances since taking office in 2010 and 2006, respectively."
– BurnsBA
15 hours ago
I'll accept this in a few hours, just making sure no other good answers come in
– Redwolf Programs
12 hours ago
18
18
+1 for sidestepping the technicals and getting to the heart of the matter. The Constitution was made to serve a civil society and doesn't work for any other kind. Tyrants don't typically care about the rules, so the law is only as good as the lengths to which people will go to defend it.
– Wes Sayeed
yesterday
+1 for sidestepping the technicals and getting to the heart of the matter. The Constitution was made to serve a civil society and doesn't work for any other kind. Tyrants don't typically care about the rules, so the law is only as good as the lengths to which people will go to defend it.
– Wes Sayeed
yesterday
1
1
@BurnsBA: No, I did mean Hungary, although Poland is also a reasonable example. In the paper you mention their baseline is the first of democracy, which can be pretty misleading as to what happened in-between. Poland "eroded" because according to that data it was more democratic in 1991 than in 2017, whereas Hungary stayed the same relative to 1990. But the scores of Poland and Hungary in 2017 are virtually the same, so the difference is explained by the score in 1990/1991. I think few would claim that Hungary has not regressed under Orban relative to the time they were admitted in the EU.
– Fizz
16 hours ago
@BurnsBA: No, I did mean Hungary, although Poland is also a reasonable example. In the paper you mention their baseline is the first of democracy, which can be pretty misleading as to what happened in-between. Poland "eroded" because according to that data it was more democratic in 1991 than in 2017, whereas Hungary stayed the same relative to 1990. But the scores of Poland and Hungary in 2017 are virtually the same, so the difference is explained by the score in 1990/1991. I think few would claim that Hungary has not regressed under Orban relative to the time they were admitted in the EU.
– Fizz
16 hours ago
1
1
Er, yeah, I reread the paper. "The resulting regimes allow for elections with an accurate vote count, although usually not a fair playing field. In the 2010s, Hungary and Bolivia have exemplified this path. Both countries made major advances during their first two decades as democracies, but power-hungry executives have since presided over the corrosion of liberal democracy. Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orbán and Bolivian president Evo Morales have chipped away at opposition rights and checks and balances since taking office in 2010 and 2006, respectively."
– BurnsBA
15 hours ago
Er, yeah, I reread the paper. "The resulting regimes allow for elections with an accurate vote count, although usually not a fair playing field. In the 2010s, Hungary and Bolivia have exemplified this path. Both countries made major advances during their first two decades as democracies, but power-hungry executives have since presided over the corrosion of liberal democracy. Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orbán and Bolivian president Evo Morales have chipped away at opposition rights and checks and balances since taking office in 2010 and 2006, respectively."
– BurnsBA
15 hours ago
I'll accept this in a few hours, just making sure no other good answers come in
– Redwolf Programs
12 hours ago
I'll accept this in a few hours, just making sure no other good answers come in
– Redwolf Programs
12 hours ago
add a comment |
Because of this, the party could make the supreme court judges "disappear" and appoint new ones. Despite suspicions, he/she couldn't be impeached
This is the specific step in your chain where your thinking goes into crazy town.
Let's be clear that "disappearing" judges is a euphemism for murdering them. Murder of federal officials for a political purpose is an extremely serious crime in the United States, which despite current partisan antics, still has functioning rule of law. Murders are crimes that are too serious not to be investigated, especially if they are serial murders of a specific class of victim which have a motive that is too obvious to ignore. The number of murders that would be required to significantly tip the balance of the judicial branch is at least 4, and likely very many more because the Supreme Court is not the only court that would need to be controlled in order to nullify the judicial branch's checks and balances on the other branches of government.
Attempting to stop a serial murder investigation into the deaths or disappearances of federal judges would be highly scandalous. Eventually the investigation would find some of the participants in the plot, because the sheer number of murders you'd have to get away with would be nearly impossible. At that point, the existence of the scheme being discovered by the public would completely change the earlier assumptions you made in your story, namely:
The president couldn't be impeached, since the house and senate are under control of the party
"I knew about this giant murder scheme to murder federal judges and was planning to let it happen, re-elect me so I can continue this great work" is not a very compelling re-election campaign message. If the President was somehow identified to be part of this scandal, then the obvious thing for any given House member is to impeach the President, and any given Senate member is to vote for removal, purely out of their own selfish interest so they don't get tarred with the thing when they face re-election.
Finally, it's worth noting that the situation you describe in the beginning has happened many times before in America; there have been many periods where one party controls the House, Senate, and the Presidency, yet nothing like this has ever taken place. That should be your first clue that you're missing something. The Democrats have had something like 26 years of full control during the 20th century (mostly during the depression and the 60's) and the Republicans had a few years also in the 2000's, yet there's been no complicated judicial murder schemes in any of those periods.
3
No need to murder the judges one by one, "just" let terrorists blow up the whole court when in session.
– Martin Schröder
17 hours ago
1
@MartinSchroder Terrorist incidents leave much more evidence behind than simple murders. Also, there are 94 Federal district courts across the country, most of them inside Federal buildings with high security for the express purpose of preventing a terrorist attack such as you describe. Nefarious people in the government couldn't "just" let this many terrorist strikes take place and get away with it.
– Joe
14 hours ago
4
@cpcodes Really? Some think Trump's disregard for legalistic convention is enough evidence to suggest he's just chomping at the bit to murder his enemies? And people say Trump derangement syndrome doesn't exist.
– eyeballfrog
13 hours ago
3
@eyeballfrog I'm characterizing the views of others, not my own concerning Trump, but his flouting of convention refutes the statement that it is unlikely simply because it has never happened before - i.e. even for things which are commonplace today, there was once a first time. Further, the exact method of the taking over of the government is incidental (whether murder is required), the meat of the question is whether complete control of the presidency and the houses could provide an exploitable foothold to take over all three branches of government and then (presumably) become authoritarian.
– cpcodes
13 hours ago
2
@cpcodes Trump's rhetorical excesses which are a product of his rampant narcissism have not produced any unprecedented policy excesses that undermine the constitutional order of the United States.
– Joe
13 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
Because of this, the party could make the supreme court judges "disappear" and appoint new ones. Despite suspicions, he/she couldn't be impeached
This is the specific step in your chain where your thinking goes into crazy town.
Let's be clear that "disappearing" judges is a euphemism for murdering them. Murder of federal officials for a political purpose is an extremely serious crime in the United States, which despite current partisan antics, still has functioning rule of law. Murders are crimes that are too serious not to be investigated, especially if they are serial murders of a specific class of victim which have a motive that is too obvious to ignore. The number of murders that would be required to significantly tip the balance of the judicial branch is at least 4, and likely very many more because the Supreme Court is not the only court that would need to be controlled in order to nullify the judicial branch's checks and balances on the other branches of government.
Attempting to stop a serial murder investigation into the deaths or disappearances of federal judges would be highly scandalous. Eventually the investigation would find some of the participants in the plot, because the sheer number of murders you'd have to get away with would be nearly impossible. At that point, the existence of the scheme being discovered by the public would completely change the earlier assumptions you made in your story, namely:
The president couldn't be impeached, since the house and senate are under control of the party
"I knew about this giant murder scheme to murder federal judges and was planning to let it happen, re-elect me so I can continue this great work" is not a very compelling re-election campaign message. If the President was somehow identified to be part of this scandal, then the obvious thing for any given House member is to impeach the President, and any given Senate member is to vote for removal, purely out of their own selfish interest so they don't get tarred with the thing when they face re-election.
Finally, it's worth noting that the situation you describe in the beginning has happened many times before in America; there have been many periods where one party controls the House, Senate, and the Presidency, yet nothing like this has ever taken place. That should be your first clue that you're missing something. The Democrats have had something like 26 years of full control during the 20th century (mostly during the depression and the 60's) and the Republicans had a few years also in the 2000's, yet there's been no complicated judicial murder schemes in any of those periods.
3
No need to murder the judges one by one, "just" let terrorists blow up the whole court when in session.
– Martin Schröder
17 hours ago
1
@MartinSchroder Terrorist incidents leave much more evidence behind than simple murders. Also, there are 94 Federal district courts across the country, most of them inside Federal buildings with high security for the express purpose of preventing a terrorist attack such as you describe. Nefarious people in the government couldn't "just" let this many terrorist strikes take place and get away with it.
– Joe
14 hours ago
4
@cpcodes Really? Some think Trump's disregard for legalistic convention is enough evidence to suggest he's just chomping at the bit to murder his enemies? And people say Trump derangement syndrome doesn't exist.
– eyeballfrog
13 hours ago
3
@eyeballfrog I'm characterizing the views of others, not my own concerning Trump, but his flouting of convention refutes the statement that it is unlikely simply because it has never happened before - i.e. even for things which are commonplace today, there was once a first time. Further, the exact method of the taking over of the government is incidental (whether murder is required), the meat of the question is whether complete control of the presidency and the houses could provide an exploitable foothold to take over all three branches of government and then (presumably) become authoritarian.
– cpcodes
13 hours ago
2
@cpcodes Trump's rhetorical excesses which are a product of his rampant narcissism have not produced any unprecedented policy excesses that undermine the constitutional order of the United States.
– Joe
13 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
Because of this, the party could make the supreme court judges "disappear" and appoint new ones. Despite suspicions, he/she couldn't be impeached
This is the specific step in your chain where your thinking goes into crazy town.
Let's be clear that "disappearing" judges is a euphemism for murdering them. Murder of federal officials for a political purpose is an extremely serious crime in the United States, which despite current partisan antics, still has functioning rule of law. Murders are crimes that are too serious not to be investigated, especially if they are serial murders of a specific class of victim which have a motive that is too obvious to ignore. The number of murders that would be required to significantly tip the balance of the judicial branch is at least 4, and likely very many more because the Supreme Court is not the only court that would need to be controlled in order to nullify the judicial branch's checks and balances on the other branches of government.
Attempting to stop a serial murder investigation into the deaths or disappearances of federal judges would be highly scandalous. Eventually the investigation would find some of the participants in the plot, because the sheer number of murders you'd have to get away with would be nearly impossible. At that point, the existence of the scheme being discovered by the public would completely change the earlier assumptions you made in your story, namely:
The president couldn't be impeached, since the house and senate are under control of the party
"I knew about this giant murder scheme to murder federal judges and was planning to let it happen, re-elect me so I can continue this great work" is not a very compelling re-election campaign message. If the President was somehow identified to be part of this scandal, then the obvious thing for any given House member is to impeach the President, and any given Senate member is to vote for removal, purely out of their own selfish interest so they don't get tarred with the thing when they face re-election.
Finally, it's worth noting that the situation you describe in the beginning has happened many times before in America; there have been many periods where one party controls the House, Senate, and the Presidency, yet nothing like this has ever taken place. That should be your first clue that you're missing something. The Democrats have had something like 26 years of full control during the 20th century (mostly during the depression and the 60's) and the Republicans had a few years also in the 2000's, yet there's been no complicated judicial murder schemes in any of those periods.
Because of this, the party could make the supreme court judges "disappear" and appoint new ones. Despite suspicions, he/she couldn't be impeached
This is the specific step in your chain where your thinking goes into crazy town.
Let's be clear that "disappearing" judges is a euphemism for murdering them. Murder of federal officials for a political purpose is an extremely serious crime in the United States, which despite current partisan antics, still has functioning rule of law. Murders are crimes that are too serious not to be investigated, especially if they are serial murders of a specific class of victim which have a motive that is too obvious to ignore. The number of murders that would be required to significantly tip the balance of the judicial branch is at least 4, and likely very many more because the Supreme Court is not the only court that would need to be controlled in order to nullify the judicial branch's checks and balances on the other branches of government.
Attempting to stop a serial murder investigation into the deaths or disappearances of federal judges would be highly scandalous. Eventually the investigation would find some of the participants in the plot, because the sheer number of murders you'd have to get away with would be nearly impossible. At that point, the existence of the scheme being discovered by the public would completely change the earlier assumptions you made in your story, namely:
The president couldn't be impeached, since the house and senate are under control of the party
"I knew about this giant murder scheme to murder federal judges and was planning to let it happen, re-elect me so I can continue this great work" is not a very compelling re-election campaign message. If the President was somehow identified to be part of this scandal, then the obvious thing for any given House member is to impeach the President, and any given Senate member is to vote for removal, purely out of their own selfish interest so they don't get tarred with the thing when they face re-election.
Finally, it's worth noting that the situation you describe in the beginning has happened many times before in America; there have been many periods where one party controls the House, Senate, and the Presidency, yet nothing like this has ever taken place. That should be your first clue that you're missing something. The Democrats have had something like 26 years of full control during the 20th century (mostly during the depression and the 60's) and the Republicans had a few years also in the 2000's, yet there's been no complicated judicial murder schemes in any of those periods.
answered 19 hours ago
JoeJoe
2,801622
2,801622
3
No need to murder the judges one by one, "just" let terrorists blow up the whole court when in session.
– Martin Schröder
17 hours ago
1
@MartinSchroder Terrorist incidents leave much more evidence behind than simple murders. Also, there are 94 Federal district courts across the country, most of them inside Federal buildings with high security for the express purpose of preventing a terrorist attack such as you describe. Nefarious people in the government couldn't "just" let this many terrorist strikes take place and get away with it.
– Joe
14 hours ago
4
@cpcodes Really? Some think Trump's disregard for legalistic convention is enough evidence to suggest he's just chomping at the bit to murder his enemies? And people say Trump derangement syndrome doesn't exist.
– eyeballfrog
13 hours ago
3
@eyeballfrog I'm characterizing the views of others, not my own concerning Trump, but his flouting of convention refutes the statement that it is unlikely simply because it has never happened before - i.e. even for things which are commonplace today, there was once a first time. Further, the exact method of the taking over of the government is incidental (whether murder is required), the meat of the question is whether complete control of the presidency and the houses could provide an exploitable foothold to take over all three branches of government and then (presumably) become authoritarian.
– cpcodes
13 hours ago
2
@cpcodes Trump's rhetorical excesses which are a product of his rampant narcissism have not produced any unprecedented policy excesses that undermine the constitutional order of the United States.
– Joe
13 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
3
No need to murder the judges one by one, "just" let terrorists blow up the whole court when in session.
– Martin Schröder
17 hours ago
1
@MartinSchroder Terrorist incidents leave much more evidence behind than simple murders. Also, there are 94 Federal district courts across the country, most of them inside Federal buildings with high security for the express purpose of preventing a terrorist attack such as you describe. Nefarious people in the government couldn't "just" let this many terrorist strikes take place and get away with it.
– Joe
14 hours ago
4
@cpcodes Really? Some think Trump's disregard for legalistic convention is enough evidence to suggest he's just chomping at the bit to murder his enemies? And people say Trump derangement syndrome doesn't exist.
– eyeballfrog
13 hours ago
3
@eyeballfrog I'm characterizing the views of others, not my own concerning Trump, but his flouting of convention refutes the statement that it is unlikely simply because it has never happened before - i.e. even for things which are commonplace today, there was once a first time. Further, the exact method of the taking over of the government is incidental (whether murder is required), the meat of the question is whether complete control of the presidency and the houses could provide an exploitable foothold to take over all three branches of government and then (presumably) become authoritarian.
– cpcodes
13 hours ago
2
@cpcodes Trump's rhetorical excesses which are a product of his rampant narcissism have not produced any unprecedented policy excesses that undermine the constitutional order of the United States.
– Joe
13 hours ago
3
3
No need to murder the judges one by one, "just" let terrorists blow up the whole court when in session.
– Martin Schröder
17 hours ago
No need to murder the judges one by one, "just" let terrorists blow up the whole court when in session.
– Martin Schröder
17 hours ago
1
1
@MartinSchroder Terrorist incidents leave much more evidence behind than simple murders. Also, there are 94 Federal district courts across the country, most of them inside Federal buildings with high security for the express purpose of preventing a terrorist attack such as you describe. Nefarious people in the government couldn't "just" let this many terrorist strikes take place and get away with it.
– Joe
14 hours ago
@MartinSchroder Terrorist incidents leave much more evidence behind than simple murders. Also, there are 94 Federal district courts across the country, most of them inside Federal buildings with high security for the express purpose of preventing a terrorist attack such as you describe. Nefarious people in the government couldn't "just" let this many terrorist strikes take place and get away with it.
– Joe
14 hours ago
4
4
@cpcodes Really? Some think Trump's disregard for legalistic convention is enough evidence to suggest he's just chomping at the bit to murder his enemies? And people say Trump derangement syndrome doesn't exist.
– eyeballfrog
13 hours ago
@cpcodes Really? Some think Trump's disregard for legalistic convention is enough evidence to suggest he's just chomping at the bit to murder his enemies? And people say Trump derangement syndrome doesn't exist.
– eyeballfrog
13 hours ago
3
3
@eyeballfrog I'm characterizing the views of others, not my own concerning Trump, but his flouting of convention refutes the statement that it is unlikely simply because it has never happened before - i.e. even for things which are commonplace today, there was once a first time. Further, the exact method of the taking over of the government is incidental (whether murder is required), the meat of the question is whether complete control of the presidency and the houses could provide an exploitable foothold to take over all three branches of government and then (presumably) become authoritarian.
– cpcodes
13 hours ago
@eyeballfrog I'm characterizing the views of others, not my own concerning Trump, but his flouting of convention refutes the statement that it is unlikely simply because it has never happened before - i.e. even for things which are commonplace today, there was once a first time. Further, the exact method of the taking over of the government is incidental (whether murder is required), the meat of the question is whether complete control of the presidency and the houses could provide an exploitable foothold to take over all three branches of government and then (presumably) become authoritarian.
– cpcodes
13 hours ago
2
2
@cpcodes Trump's rhetorical excesses which are a product of his rampant narcissism have not produced any unprecedented policy excesses that undermine the constitutional order of the United States.
– Joe
13 hours ago
@cpcodes Trump's rhetorical excesses which are a product of his rampant narcissism have not produced any unprecedented policy excesses that undermine the constitutional order of the United States.
– Joe
13 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
A couple things are worth considering in this scenario.
First of all, this scenario assumes that some party can manage to convince an overwhelming majority of the populace, and the states, to vote for it. That's quite a tall order already. Granted, extremely one-sided senatorial elections have happened. For example, in the 1936 elections, Democrats controlled 74 seats, and Republicans controlled 17. The House of Representative elections was similarly one-sided. That's more than the needed 2/3 majority to approve a constitutional amendment. That being said, those were very different times. The election was at the same time as the presidential elections, and essentially became an election about the New Deal. In the context of the Great Depression, it's not too surprising that the vote was this lopsided. Some pretty cataclysmic events would have to occur to get such one-sided elections again. For context, in the 2016 Senate elections, Democrats won 46 seats, and Republicans won 52. In the House elections, Republicans won 241 seats, and Democrats won 194. The point is, the votes are extremely close right now. We are no where near the 2/3 mark.
Second, 3/4 of the states need to approve Constitutional amendments (such as one needed to change the size of the Supreme Court). That's a lot of states. For either party, there's a dedicated core of states that will never "fall" to the opposing party. Here's a map of "Red" and "Blue" states:
You'll notice that while Republicans control many rural states, it's still fairly evenly matched. As I mentioned previously, it would take some pretty cataclysmic events to cause a change drastic enough to give one side a 3/4 majority. A sufficiently serious natural disaster or terrorist attack might do it, but I'm fairly doubtful that even in that case you'd see large enough changes.
Third, you have to consider what population you're talking about. Because of a combination of factors, Americans have had a somewhat unique fixation on freedom, and a particularly potent loathing towards surrendering rights to the government for any reason. There are many who claim that even current government policies are tyrannical, and that's without any party attempting to become tyrants. While it's certainly true that private citizens aren't a great army, there's a lot of them. America has a very high amount of weapons per capita, and a large portion of the population own weapons. Granted, many would not have the initiative to rise up against a government. I suspect, however, that enough would to cause serious damage. After all, the war in Vietnam should be a lesson in how effective untrained civilians can be.
To sum things up, I think that it's essentially impossible for this to happen politically. If it indeed does occur, I expect that this regime would be an extremely unstable one. They would have to deal with incessant civilian insurgencies, and would have to find a way to govern a population which is armed and ideologically opposed to its rulers. On the other hand, "it couldn't happen here" were the last words of very many people throughout history. It's certainly an interesting topic to think about.
7
I strongly object to the "will never fall" line. Parties evolve over time, and their coalitions change with that. There were extremely lopsided results in 1980, 1984, and 1988, and the 1976 map looks nothing like the modern one. Democrats won most of the South (including Texas) and Republicans won the entire west of the country (including California). Sure, that was 40 years ago, but what do you expect the map to look like in another 40 years? That said, I think the third part of this answer is quite good.
– Bobson
yesterday
4
You say "untrained civilians," but the US has a lot of combat veterans and a significant percentage privately own weapons. If even a small percentage of them decide to become insurgents they'll train all the other insurgents. It may not be to the same extent that the regular army gets, but they have the advantage of only needing to be trained to defend their home turf.
– IllusiveBrian
yesterday
2
Also, I think there's one more thing the answer leaves out - if the government were plainly corrupt and attempted to use the military and intelligence agencies to exert their rule, they would have mass desertions on their hands, and even worse a lot of insider threats.
– IllusiveBrian
yesterday
7
2nd paragraph contains an error: "... the states need to approve Constitutional amendments (such as one needed to change the size of the Supreme Court.)" A Constitutional amendment is not required to change the size of the Supreme Court. It can be done through the normal lawmaking process (and has been done several times throughout U.S. history).
– Wes Sayeed
yesterday
4
"For context, in the 2016 Senate elections, Democrats won 46 seats, and Republicans won 52." That's badly put. In any given Congressional election year, about 1/3 of the Senate seats are at stake. The other 2/3 are already filled by people who were elected 2 years earlier or 4 years earlier, and still have time left in their six-year terms before they will need to worry about running for re-election (or choosing not to run). So the Democrats did not "win" 46 seats all at once -- they just won enough to end up with a grand total of 46, many of which they already had before Election Day 2016.
– Lorendiac
16 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
A couple things are worth considering in this scenario.
First of all, this scenario assumes that some party can manage to convince an overwhelming majority of the populace, and the states, to vote for it. That's quite a tall order already. Granted, extremely one-sided senatorial elections have happened. For example, in the 1936 elections, Democrats controlled 74 seats, and Republicans controlled 17. The House of Representative elections was similarly one-sided. That's more than the needed 2/3 majority to approve a constitutional amendment. That being said, those were very different times. The election was at the same time as the presidential elections, and essentially became an election about the New Deal. In the context of the Great Depression, it's not too surprising that the vote was this lopsided. Some pretty cataclysmic events would have to occur to get such one-sided elections again. For context, in the 2016 Senate elections, Democrats won 46 seats, and Republicans won 52. In the House elections, Republicans won 241 seats, and Democrats won 194. The point is, the votes are extremely close right now. We are no where near the 2/3 mark.
Second, 3/4 of the states need to approve Constitutional amendments (such as one needed to change the size of the Supreme Court). That's a lot of states. For either party, there's a dedicated core of states that will never "fall" to the opposing party. Here's a map of "Red" and "Blue" states:
You'll notice that while Republicans control many rural states, it's still fairly evenly matched. As I mentioned previously, it would take some pretty cataclysmic events to cause a change drastic enough to give one side a 3/4 majority. A sufficiently serious natural disaster or terrorist attack might do it, but I'm fairly doubtful that even in that case you'd see large enough changes.
Third, you have to consider what population you're talking about. Because of a combination of factors, Americans have had a somewhat unique fixation on freedom, and a particularly potent loathing towards surrendering rights to the government for any reason. There are many who claim that even current government policies are tyrannical, and that's without any party attempting to become tyrants. While it's certainly true that private citizens aren't a great army, there's a lot of them. America has a very high amount of weapons per capita, and a large portion of the population own weapons. Granted, many would not have the initiative to rise up against a government. I suspect, however, that enough would to cause serious damage. After all, the war in Vietnam should be a lesson in how effective untrained civilians can be.
To sum things up, I think that it's essentially impossible for this to happen politically. If it indeed does occur, I expect that this regime would be an extremely unstable one. They would have to deal with incessant civilian insurgencies, and would have to find a way to govern a population which is armed and ideologically opposed to its rulers. On the other hand, "it couldn't happen here" were the last words of very many people throughout history. It's certainly an interesting topic to think about.
7
I strongly object to the "will never fall" line. Parties evolve over time, and their coalitions change with that. There were extremely lopsided results in 1980, 1984, and 1988, and the 1976 map looks nothing like the modern one. Democrats won most of the South (including Texas) and Republicans won the entire west of the country (including California). Sure, that was 40 years ago, but what do you expect the map to look like in another 40 years? That said, I think the third part of this answer is quite good.
– Bobson
yesterday
4
You say "untrained civilians," but the US has a lot of combat veterans and a significant percentage privately own weapons. If even a small percentage of them decide to become insurgents they'll train all the other insurgents. It may not be to the same extent that the regular army gets, but they have the advantage of only needing to be trained to defend their home turf.
– IllusiveBrian
yesterday
2
Also, I think there's one more thing the answer leaves out - if the government were plainly corrupt and attempted to use the military and intelligence agencies to exert their rule, they would have mass desertions on their hands, and even worse a lot of insider threats.
– IllusiveBrian
yesterday
7
2nd paragraph contains an error: "... the states need to approve Constitutional amendments (such as one needed to change the size of the Supreme Court.)" A Constitutional amendment is not required to change the size of the Supreme Court. It can be done through the normal lawmaking process (and has been done several times throughout U.S. history).
– Wes Sayeed
yesterday
4
"For context, in the 2016 Senate elections, Democrats won 46 seats, and Republicans won 52." That's badly put. In any given Congressional election year, about 1/3 of the Senate seats are at stake. The other 2/3 are already filled by people who were elected 2 years earlier or 4 years earlier, and still have time left in their six-year terms before they will need to worry about running for re-election (or choosing not to run). So the Democrats did not "win" 46 seats all at once -- they just won enough to end up with a grand total of 46, many of which they already had before Election Day 2016.
– Lorendiac
16 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
A couple things are worth considering in this scenario.
First of all, this scenario assumes that some party can manage to convince an overwhelming majority of the populace, and the states, to vote for it. That's quite a tall order already. Granted, extremely one-sided senatorial elections have happened. For example, in the 1936 elections, Democrats controlled 74 seats, and Republicans controlled 17. The House of Representative elections was similarly one-sided. That's more than the needed 2/3 majority to approve a constitutional amendment. That being said, those were very different times. The election was at the same time as the presidential elections, and essentially became an election about the New Deal. In the context of the Great Depression, it's not too surprising that the vote was this lopsided. Some pretty cataclysmic events would have to occur to get such one-sided elections again. For context, in the 2016 Senate elections, Democrats won 46 seats, and Republicans won 52. In the House elections, Republicans won 241 seats, and Democrats won 194. The point is, the votes are extremely close right now. We are no where near the 2/3 mark.
Second, 3/4 of the states need to approve Constitutional amendments (such as one needed to change the size of the Supreme Court). That's a lot of states. For either party, there's a dedicated core of states that will never "fall" to the opposing party. Here's a map of "Red" and "Blue" states:
You'll notice that while Republicans control many rural states, it's still fairly evenly matched. As I mentioned previously, it would take some pretty cataclysmic events to cause a change drastic enough to give one side a 3/4 majority. A sufficiently serious natural disaster or terrorist attack might do it, but I'm fairly doubtful that even in that case you'd see large enough changes.
Third, you have to consider what population you're talking about. Because of a combination of factors, Americans have had a somewhat unique fixation on freedom, and a particularly potent loathing towards surrendering rights to the government for any reason. There are many who claim that even current government policies are tyrannical, and that's without any party attempting to become tyrants. While it's certainly true that private citizens aren't a great army, there's a lot of them. America has a very high amount of weapons per capita, and a large portion of the population own weapons. Granted, many would not have the initiative to rise up against a government. I suspect, however, that enough would to cause serious damage. After all, the war in Vietnam should be a lesson in how effective untrained civilians can be.
To sum things up, I think that it's essentially impossible for this to happen politically. If it indeed does occur, I expect that this regime would be an extremely unstable one. They would have to deal with incessant civilian insurgencies, and would have to find a way to govern a population which is armed and ideologically opposed to its rulers. On the other hand, "it couldn't happen here" were the last words of very many people throughout history. It's certainly an interesting topic to think about.
A couple things are worth considering in this scenario.
First of all, this scenario assumes that some party can manage to convince an overwhelming majority of the populace, and the states, to vote for it. That's quite a tall order already. Granted, extremely one-sided senatorial elections have happened. For example, in the 1936 elections, Democrats controlled 74 seats, and Republicans controlled 17. The House of Representative elections was similarly one-sided. That's more than the needed 2/3 majority to approve a constitutional amendment. That being said, those were very different times. The election was at the same time as the presidential elections, and essentially became an election about the New Deal. In the context of the Great Depression, it's not too surprising that the vote was this lopsided. Some pretty cataclysmic events would have to occur to get such one-sided elections again. For context, in the 2016 Senate elections, Democrats won 46 seats, and Republicans won 52. In the House elections, Republicans won 241 seats, and Democrats won 194. The point is, the votes are extremely close right now. We are no where near the 2/3 mark.
Second, 3/4 of the states need to approve Constitutional amendments (such as one needed to change the size of the Supreme Court). That's a lot of states. For either party, there's a dedicated core of states that will never "fall" to the opposing party. Here's a map of "Red" and "Blue" states:
You'll notice that while Republicans control many rural states, it's still fairly evenly matched. As I mentioned previously, it would take some pretty cataclysmic events to cause a change drastic enough to give one side a 3/4 majority. A sufficiently serious natural disaster or terrorist attack might do it, but I'm fairly doubtful that even in that case you'd see large enough changes.
Third, you have to consider what population you're talking about. Because of a combination of factors, Americans have had a somewhat unique fixation on freedom, and a particularly potent loathing towards surrendering rights to the government for any reason. There are many who claim that even current government policies are tyrannical, and that's without any party attempting to become tyrants. While it's certainly true that private citizens aren't a great army, there's a lot of them. America has a very high amount of weapons per capita, and a large portion of the population own weapons. Granted, many would not have the initiative to rise up against a government. I suspect, however, that enough would to cause serious damage. After all, the war in Vietnam should be a lesson in how effective untrained civilians can be.
To sum things up, I think that it's essentially impossible for this to happen politically. If it indeed does occur, I expect that this regime would be an extremely unstable one. They would have to deal with incessant civilian insurgencies, and would have to find a way to govern a population which is armed and ideologically opposed to its rulers. On the other hand, "it couldn't happen here" were the last words of very many people throughout history. It's certainly an interesting topic to think about.
answered yesterday
DevilApple227DevilApple227
22314
22314
7
I strongly object to the "will never fall" line. Parties evolve over time, and their coalitions change with that. There were extremely lopsided results in 1980, 1984, and 1988, and the 1976 map looks nothing like the modern one. Democrats won most of the South (including Texas) and Republicans won the entire west of the country (including California). Sure, that was 40 years ago, but what do you expect the map to look like in another 40 years? That said, I think the third part of this answer is quite good.
– Bobson
yesterday
4
You say "untrained civilians," but the US has a lot of combat veterans and a significant percentage privately own weapons. If even a small percentage of them decide to become insurgents they'll train all the other insurgents. It may not be to the same extent that the regular army gets, but they have the advantage of only needing to be trained to defend their home turf.
– IllusiveBrian
yesterday
2
Also, I think there's one more thing the answer leaves out - if the government were plainly corrupt and attempted to use the military and intelligence agencies to exert their rule, they would have mass desertions on their hands, and even worse a lot of insider threats.
– IllusiveBrian
yesterday
7
2nd paragraph contains an error: "... the states need to approve Constitutional amendments (such as one needed to change the size of the Supreme Court.)" A Constitutional amendment is not required to change the size of the Supreme Court. It can be done through the normal lawmaking process (and has been done several times throughout U.S. history).
– Wes Sayeed
yesterday
4
"For context, in the 2016 Senate elections, Democrats won 46 seats, and Republicans won 52." That's badly put. In any given Congressional election year, about 1/3 of the Senate seats are at stake. The other 2/3 are already filled by people who were elected 2 years earlier or 4 years earlier, and still have time left in their six-year terms before they will need to worry about running for re-election (or choosing not to run). So the Democrats did not "win" 46 seats all at once -- they just won enough to end up with a grand total of 46, many of which they already had before Election Day 2016.
– Lorendiac
16 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
7
I strongly object to the "will never fall" line. Parties evolve over time, and their coalitions change with that. There were extremely lopsided results in 1980, 1984, and 1988, and the 1976 map looks nothing like the modern one. Democrats won most of the South (including Texas) and Republicans won the entire west of the country (including California). Sure, that was 40 years ago, but what do you expect the map to look like in another 40 years? That said, I think the third part of this answer is quite good.
– Bobson
yesterday
4
You say "untrained civilians," but the US has a lot of combat veterans and a significant percentage privately own weapons. If even a small percentage of them decide to become insurgents they'll train all the other insurgents. It may not be to the same extent that the regular army gets, but they have the advantage of only needing to be trained to defend their home turf.
– IllusiveBrian
yesterday
2
Also, I think there's one more thing the answer leaves out - if the government were plainly corrupt and attempted to use the military and intelligence agencies to exert their rule, they would have mass desertions on their hands, and even worse a lot of insider threats.
– IllusiveBrian
yesterday
7
2nd paragraph contains an error: "... the states need to approve Constitutional amendments (such as one needed to change the size of the Supreme Court.)" A Constitutional amendment is not required to change the size of the Supreme Court. It can be done through the normal lawmaking process (and has been done several times throughout U.S. history).
– Wes Sayeed
yesterday
4
"For context, in the 2016 Senate elections, Democrats won 46 seats, and Republicans won 52." That's badly put. In any given Congressional election year, about 1/3 of the Senate seats are at stake. The other 2/3 are already filled by people who were elected 2 years earlier or 4 years earlier, and still have time left in their six-year terms before they will need to worry about running for re-election (or choosing not to run). So the Democrats did not "win" 46 seats all at once -- they just won enough to end up with a grand total of 46, many of which they already had before Election Day 2016.
– Lorendiac
16 hours ago
7
7
I strongly object to the "will never fall" line. Parties evolve over time, and their coalitions change with that. There were extremely lopsided results in 1980, 1984, and 1988, and the 1976 map looks nothing like the modern one. Democrats won most of the South (including Texas) and Republicans won the entire west of the country (including California). Sure, that was 40 years ago, but what do you expect the map to look like in another 40 years? That said, I think the third part of this answer is quite good.
– Bobson
yesterday
I strongly object to the "will never fall" line. Parties evolve over time, and their coalitions change with that. There were extremely lopsided results in 1980, 1984, and 1988, and the 1976 map looks nothing like the modern one. Democrats won most of the South (including Texas) and Republicans won the entire west of the country (including California). Sure, that was 40 years ago, but what do you expect the map to look like in another 40 years? That said, I think the third part of this answer is quite good.
– Bobson
yesterday
4
4
You say "untrained civilians," but the US has a lot of combat veterans and a significant percentage privately own weapons. If even a small percentage of them decide to become insurgents they'll train all the other insurgents. It may not be to the same extent that the regular army gets, but they have the advantage of only needing to be trained to defend their home turf.
– IllusiveBrian
yesterday
You say "untrained civilians," but the US has a lot of combat veterans and a significant percentage privately own weapons. If even a small percentage of them decide to become insurgents they'll train all the other insurgents. It may not be to the same extent that the regular army gets, but they have the advantage of only needing to be trained to defend their home turf.
– IllusiveBrian
yesterday
2
2
Also, I think there's one more thing the answer leaves out - if the government were plainly corrupt and attempted to use the military and intelligence agencies to exert their rule, they would have mass desertions on their hands, and even worse a lot of insider threats.
– IllusiveBrian
yesterday
Also, I think there's one more thing the answer leaves out - if the government were plainly corrupt and attempted to use the military and intelligence agencies to exert their rule, they would have mass desertions on their hands, and even worse a lot of insider threats.
– IllusiveBrian
yesterday
7
7
2nd paragraph contains an error: "... the states need to approve Constitutional amendments (such as one needed to change the size of the Supreme Court.)" A Constitutional amendment is not required to change the size of the Supreme Court. It can be done through the normal lawmaking process (and has been done several times throughout U.S. history).
– Wes Sayeed
yesterday
2nd paragraph contains an error: "... the states need to approve Constitutional amendments (such as one needed to change the size of the Supreme Court.)" A Constitutional amendment is not required to change the size of the Supreme Court. It can be done through the normal lawmaking process (and has been done several times throughout U.S. history).
– Wes Sayeed
yesterday
4
4
"For context, in the 2016 Senate elections, Democrats won 46 seats, and Republicans won 52." That's badly put. In any given Congressional election year, about 1/3 of the Senate seats are at stake. The other 2/3 are already filled by people who were elected 2 years earlier or 4 years earlier, and still have time left in their six-year terms before they will need to worry about running for re-election (or choosing not to run). So the Democrats did not "win" 46 seats all at once -- they just won enough to end up with a grand total of 46, many of which they already had before Election Day 2016.
– Lorendiac
16 hours ago
"For context, in the 2016 Senate elections, Democrats won 46 seats, and Republicans won 52." That's badly put. In any given Congressional election year, about 1/3 of the Senate seats are at stake. The other 2/3 are already filled by people who were elected 2 years earlier or 4 years earlier, and still have time left in their six-year terms before they will need to worry about running for re-election (or choosing not to run). So the Democrats did not "win" 46 seats all at once -- they just won enough to end up with a grand total of 46, many of which they already had before Election Day 2016.
– Lorendiac
16 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
In addition to the good points raised by other answers, it's worth noting that political parties are not monolithic. When a party with a preponderance of power comes close to the line of abusing that power, sometimes members of the party appear to stop it, or at least slow it down. Not always, but sometimes. Examples in the last decade or so include Jim Webb, who asked the Senate to delay voting on Obamacare until Scott Brown was seated. It's reasonable to argue either way as to whether or not this actually stopped an abuse, as the Democrats then responded by using reconciliation, which was intended as a budget-balancing rule, to pass Obamacare without 60 Senate votes, but the point remains that Webb had a certain sense of propriety which, to him, was more important than the exercise of raw power.
The Republicans have not recently held a preponderance of power (Presidency + House control + 60 Senate votes) similar to what the Democrats had in 2009. However, there are abundant signs that if a similar situation were to occur, there are Republicans who would act in a similar way. Senator Mitt Romney, for example, has no problem writing scathing criticism of Trump, or, for that matter, supporting him, depending on how Romney sees a particular situation. Going further back, the Republicans turned against President Nixon when the evidence against him became damning.
2
You might want to clarify what you mean in the last paragraph. I assume you mean that even though Republicans had control of both chambers and the Presidency for the last two years, they didn't have a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.
– Bobson
18 hours ago
I was going to answer about this very thing. You'll actually find that it's rather hard for the party in power to do anything because the opposition party is usually ideologicially concentrated to the party hard core because they are safe seats while the party in power is ideologically weak because they have moderate members who won in a swing district and have to play closer to a middle ground in hopes of re-election. During Obamacare debates, GOP was united in it's opposition, while Democrats had a tough time winning their own member's votes.
– hszmv
15 hours ago
political parties are not monolithic +1. Meaning, they will do what they can to appease their party, but they will do whatever needs done to get reelected by their constitutes. And if they're any good at their job, they're playing the long game, where you don't rock your own boat.
– Mazura
6 hours ago
add a comment |
In addition to the good points raised by other answers, it's worth noting that political parties are not monolithic. When a party with a preponderance of power comes close to the line of abusing that power, sometimes members of the party appear to stop it, or at least slow it down. Not always, but sometimes. Examples in the last decade or so include Jim Webb, who asked the Senate to delay voting on Obamacare until Scott Brown was seated. It's reasonable to argue either way as to whether or not this actually stopped an abuse, as the Democrats then responded by using reconciliation, which was intended as a budget-balancing rule, to pass Obamacare without 60 Senate votes, but the point remains that Webb had a certain sense of propriety which, to him, was more important than the exercise of raw power.
The Republicans have not recently held a preponderance of power (Presidency + House control + 60 Senate votes) similar to what the Democrats had in 2009. However, there are abundant signs that if a similar situation were to occur, there are Republicans who would act in a similar way. Senator Mitt Romney, for example, has no problem writing scathing criticism of Trump, or, for that matter, supporting him, depending on how Romney sees a particular situation. Going further back, the Republicans turned against President Nixon when the evidence against him became damning.
2
You might want to clarify what you mean in the last paragraph. I assume you mean that even though Republicans had control of both chambers and the Presidency for the last two years, they didn't have a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.
– Bobson
18 hours ago
I was going to answer about this very thing. You'll actually find that it's rather hard for the party in power to do anything because the opposition party is usually ideologicially concentrated to the party hard core because they are safe seats while the party in power is ideologically weak because they have moderate members who won in a swing district and have to play closer to a middle ground in hopes of re-election. During Obamacare debates, GOP was united in it's opposition, while Democrats had a tough time winning their own member's votes.
– hszmv
15 hours ago
political parties are not monolithic +1. Meaning, they will do what they can to appease their party, but they will do whatever needs done to get reelected by their constitutes. And if they're any good at their job, they're playing the long game, where you don't rock your own boat.
– Mazura
6 hours ago
add a comment |
In addition to the good points raised by other answers, it's worth noting that political parties are not monolithic. When a party with a preponderance of power comes close to the line of abusing that power, sometimes members of the party appear to stop it, or at least slow it down. Not always, but sometimes. Examples in the last decade or so include Jim Webb, who asked the Senate to delay voting on Obamacare until Scott Brown was seated. It's reasonable to argue either way as to whether or not this actually stopped an abuse, as the Democrats then responded by using reconciliation, which was intended as a budget-balancing rule, to pass Obamacare without 60 Senate votes, but the point remains that Webb had a certain sense of propriety which, to him, was more important than the exercise of raw power.
The Republicans have not recently held a preponderance of power (Presidency + House control + 60 Senate votes) similar to what the Democrats had in 2009. However, there are abundant signs that if a similar situation were to occur, there are Republicans who would act in a similar way. Senator Mitt Romney, for example, has no problem writing scathing criticism of Trump, or, for that matter, supporting him, depending on how Romney sees a particular situation. Going further back, the Republicans turned against President Nixon when the evidence against him became damning.
In addition to the good points raised by other answers, it's worth noting that political parties are not monolithic. When a party with a preponderance of power comes close to the line of abusing that power, sometimes members of the party appear to stop it, or at least slow it down. Not always, but sometimes. Examples in the last decade or so include Jim Webb, who asked the Senate to delay voting on Obamacare until Scott Brown was seated. It's reasonable to argue either way as to whether or not this actually stopped an abuse, as the Democrats then responded by using reconciliation, which was intended as a budget-balancing rule, to pass Obamacare without 60 Senate votes, but the point remains that Webb had a certain sense of propriety which, to him, was more important than the exercise of raw power.
The Republicans have not recently held a preponderance of power (Presidency + House control + 60 Senate votes) similar to what the Democrats had in 2009. However, there are abundant signs that if a similar situation were to occur, there are Republicans who would act in a similar way. Senator Mitt Romney, for example, has no problem writing scathing criticism of Trump, or, for that matter, supporting him, depending on how Romney sees a particular situation. Going further back, the Republicans turned against President Nixon when the evidence against him became damning.
edited 17 hours ago
answered 19 hours ago
William JockuschWilliam Jockusch
2,0701416
2,0701416
2
You might want to clarify what you mean in the last paragraph. I assume you mean that even though Republicans had control of both chambers and the Presidency for the last two years, they didn't have a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.
– Bobson
18 hours ago
I was going to answer about this very thing. You'll actually find that it's rather hard for the party in power to do anything because the opposition party is usually ideologicially concentrated to the party hard core because they are safe seats while the party in power is ideologically weak because they have moderate members who won in a swing district and have to play closer to a middle ground in hopes of re-election. During Obamacare debates, GOP was united in it's opposition, while Democrats had a tough time winning their own member's votes.
– hszmv
15 hours ago
political parties are not monolithic +1. Meaning, they will do what they can to appease their party, but they will do whatever needs done to get reelected by their constitutes. And if they're any good at their job, they're playing the long game, where you don't rock your own boat.
– Mazura
6 hours ago
add a comment |
2
You might want to clarify what you mean in the last paragraph. I assume you mean that even though Republicans had control of both chambers and the Presidency for the last two years, they didn't have a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.
– Bobson
18 hours ago
I was going to answer about this very thing. You'll actually find that it's rather hard for the party in power to do anything because the opposition party is usually ideologicially concentrated to the party hard core because they are safe seats while the party in power is ideologically weak because they have moderate members who won in a swing district and have to play closer to a middle ground in hopes of re-election. During Obamacare debates, GOP was united in it's opposition, while Democrats had a tough time winning their own member's votes.
– hszmv
15 hours ago
political parties are not monolithic +1. Meaning, they will do what they can to appease their party, but they will do whatever needs done to get reelected by their constitutes. And if they're any good at their job, they're playing the long game, where you don't rock your own boat.
– Mazura
6 hours ago
2
2
You might want to clarify what you mean in the last paragraph. I assume you mean that even though Republicans had control of both chambers and the Presidency for the last two years, they didn't have a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.
– Bobson
18 hours ago
You might want to clarify what you mean in the last paragraph. I assume you mean that even though Republicans had control of both chambers and the Presidency for the last two years, they didn't have a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.
– Bobson
18 hours ago
I was going to answer about this very thing. You'll actually find that it's rather hard for the party in power to do anything because the opposition party is usually ideologicially concentrated to the party hard core because they are safe seats while the party in power is ideologically weak because they have moderate members who won in a swing district and have to play closer to a middle ground in hopes of re-election. During Obamacare debates, GOP was united in it's opposition, while Democrats had a tough time winning their own member's votes.
– hszmv
15 hours ago
I was going to answer about this very thing. You'll actually find that it's rather hard for the party in power to do anything because the opposition party is usually ideologicially concentrated to the party hard core because they are safe seats while the party in power is ideologically weak because they have moderate members who won in a swing district and have to play closer to a middle ground in hopes of re-election. During Obamacare debates, GOP was united in it's opposition, while Democrats had a tough time winning their own member's votes.
– hszmv
15 hours ago
political parties are not monolithic +1. Meaning, they will do what they can to appease their party, but they will do whatever needs done to get reelected by their constitutes. And if they're any good at their job, they're playing the long game, where you don't rock your own boat.
– Mazura
6 hours ago
political parties are not monolithic +1. Meaning, they will do what they can to appease their party, but they will do whatever needs done to get reelected by their constitutes. And if they're any good at their job, they're playing the long game, where you don't rock your own boat.
– Mazura
6 hours ago
add a comment |
Your "disappear" comment seems to miss a point. The size of the supreme court is a matter of statute. The size of each US state is a matter of statute.
It is perfectly legal under the US constitution to appoint another 100 supreme court justices of the president's and senate's choice, assuming they get the support of congress.
Similarly, it is perfectly legal under the US constitution to make Bob and Alice's house (and their daughter, Eve) in (for example) Texas its own US State, with 2 Senators and a Congressman. Or do this 1000 times, generating 2000 new Senators and 1000 new Congresscritters, all belonging to states with 3 or more people in them (I don't think you can legally sit in both the House and the Senate, so 3 is minimal; you could do it a town at a time instead, or a county, or whatever).
With that large a majority, rewriting the US constitution becomes trivial; even before that, with that large a majority on the supreme court, ridiculous rulings saying anything that faction wants to do is constitutional is trivial.
This can all be done with the consent of any one 1 US State (any US State -- that is the state where you do the 'spawn 3 person states' in) and a majority in the US Senate & Congress and the US Presidency on-board.
A piece of paper is never a shield against tyranny. At best it can make it more obvious when someone wants to become a tyrant.
What stops this from happening?
- The expectation that people will simply not obey.
- The people winning the current political game aren't eager grab the board and flip it over (which is what this is); the current political-economic setup means winners are winning. Build a new one, and they might not be winning in it.
- Revolutionary times tend to be really dangerous and bloody, even for the nominally powerful before or during the revolution.
- Actual faith in democratic institutions among the powerful.
Like most power struggles, when power seems to be passed from one group to another it gets the most dangerous. The traditional power center still has power and sees it going away, so it uses that power to lash out at the new power center. Or the new power center gains power and doesn't have the same incentives to keep things stable.
Danger signs could be a political party deligitimizing democratic norms ("We aren't a democracy", or "It isn't illegal so it is ok"), a political party with reasons to believe it is becoming obsolete, or a new demographic group gaining relative wealth compared to the rest of society (some interesting recent research has shown that minority gaining economic power often leads to oppression, even if the majority isn't losing economic power).
1
Good points. One comment, though: in the context of American politics, it's important to be cognizant of the difference between "democratic" and "Democratic," and "republican" and "Republican." Your last paragraph is referring to "democracy," the concept, not "Democrats," the party, right?
– Jon of All Trades
16 hours ago
@JonofAllTrades Yes. Caps fixed.
– Yakk
16 hours ago
1
Downvoting for the Alice and Bob's house example. This would not be legal under the constitution because the Constitution prohibits the partitioning of a state of the union into two states unless the Current State and proposed New State agree to the partitioning. Congress cannot break Michigan into the states of Glove and Not Glove unless the Glove territory and Not Glove Territory agree to such a division. Also your examples of legitimizing Democratic Norms are problematic, but I do not have space to go into specific issues.
– hszmv
15 hours ago
1
@hszmv 2 paragraphs down I listed the requirement of consent of "1 US State (any US State)". Is that too confusing? I could move requirements before the description of the act.
– Yakk
15 hours ago
2
@hszmv I'm not seeing further value in engaging with you. If you cannot understand my answer, feel free to downvote (which I believe you have) and move on. If anyone else finds something unclear, I'd be glad to discuss it with you.
– Yakk
12 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
Your "disappear" comment seems to miss a point. The size of the supreme court is a matter of statute. The size of each US state is a matter of statute.
It is perfectly legal under the US constitution to appoint another 100 supreme court justices of the president's and senate's choice, assuming they get the support of congress.
Similarly, it is perfectly legal under the US constitution to make Bob and Alice's house (and their daughter, Eve) in (for example) Texas its own US State, with 2 Senators and a Congressman. Or do this 1000 times, generating 2000 new Senators and 1000 new Congresscritters, all belonging to states with 3 or more people in them (I don't think you can legally sit in both the House and the Senate, so 3 is minimal; you could do it a town at a time instead, or a county, or whatever).
With that large a majority, rewriting the US constitution becomes trivial; even before that, with that large a majority on the supreme court, ridiculous rulings saying anything that faction wants to do is constitutional is trivial.
This can all be done with the consent of any one 1 US State (any US State -- that is the state where you do the 'spawn 3 person states' in) and a majority in the US Senate & Congress and the US Presidency on-board.
A piece of paper is never a shield against tyranny. At best it can make it more obvious when someone wants to become a tyrant.
What stops this from happening?
- The expectation that people will simply not obey.
- The people winning the current political game aren't eager grab the board and flip it over (which is what this is); the current political-economic setup means winners are winning. Build a new one, and they might not be winning in it.
- Revolutionary times tend to be really dangerous and bloody, even for the nominally powerful before or during the revolution.
- Actual faith in democratic institutions among the powerful.
Like most power struggles, when power seems to be passed from one group to another it gets the most dangerous. The traditional power center still has power and sees it going away, so it uses that power to lash out at the new power center. Or the new power center gains power and doesn't have the same incentives to keep things stable.
Danger signs could be a political party deligitimizing democratic norms ("We aren't a democracy", or "It isn't illegal so it is ok"), a political party with reasons to believe it is becoming obsolete, or a new demographic group gaining relative wealth compared to the rest of society (some interesting recent research has shown that minority gaining economic power often leads to oppression, even if the majority isn't losing economic power).
1
Good points. One comment, though: in the context of American politics, it's important to be cognizant of the difference between "democratic" and "Democratic," and "republican" and "Republican." Your last paragraph is referring to "democracy," the concept, not "Democrats," the party, right?
– Jon of All Trades
16 hours ago
@JonofAllTrades Yes. Caps fixed.
– Yakk
16 hours ago
1
Downvoting for the Alice and Bob's house example. This would not be legal under the constitution because the Constitution prohibits the partitioning of a state of the union into two states unless the Current State and proposed New State agree to the partitioning. Congress cannot break Michigan into the states of Glove and Not Glove unless the Glove territory and Not Glove Territory agree to such a division. Also your examples of legitimizing Democratic Norms are problematic, but I do not have space to go into specific issues.
– hszmv
15 hours ago
1
@hszmv 2 paragraphs down I listed the requirement of consent of "1 US State (any US State)". Is that too confusing? I could move requirements before the description of the act.
– Yakk
15 hours ago
2
@hszmv I'm not seeing further value in engaging with you. If you cannot understand my answer, feel free to downvote (which I believe you have) and move on. If anyone else finds something unclear, I'd be glad to discuss it with you.
– Yakk
12 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
Your "disappear" comment seems to miss a point. The size of the supreme court is a matter of statute. The size of each US state is a matter of statute.
It is perfectly legal under the US constitution to appoint another 100 supreme court justices of the president's and senate's choice, assuming they get the support of congress.
Similarly, it is perfectly legal under the US constitution to make Bob and Alice's house (and their daughter, Eve) in (for example) Texas its own US State, with 2 Senators and a Congressman. Or do this 1000 times, generating 2000 new Senators and 1000 new Congresscritters, all belonging to states with 3 or more people in them (I don't think you can legally sit in both the House and the Senate, so 3 is minimal; you could do it a town at a time instead, or a county, or whatever).
With that large a majority, rewriting the US constitution becomes trivial; even before that, with that large a majority on the supreme court, ridiculous rulings saying anything that faction wants to do is constitutional is trivial.
This can all be done with the consent of any one 1 US State (any US State -- that is the state where you do the 'spawn 3 person states' in) and a majority in the US Senate & Congress and the US Presidency on-board.
A piece of paper is never a shield against tyranny. At best it can make it more obvious when someone wants to become a tyrant.
What stops this from happening?
- The expectation that people will simply not obey.
- The people winning the current political game aren't eager grab the board and flip it over (which is what this is); the current political-economic setup means winners are winning. Build a new one, and they might not be winning in it.
- Revolutionary times tend to be really dangerous and bloody, even for the nominally powerful before or during the revolution.
- Actual faith in democratic institutions among the powerful.
Like most power struggles, when power seems to be passed from one group to another it gets the most dangerous. The traditional power center still has power and sees it going away, so it uses that power to lash out at the new power center. Or the new power center gains power and doesn't have the same incentives to keep things stable.
Danger signs could be a political party deligitimizing democratic norms ("We aren't a democracy", or "It isn't illegal so it is ok"), a political party with reasons to believe it is becoming obsolete, or a new demographic group gaining relative wealth compared to the rest of society (some interesting recent research has shown that minority gaining economic power often leads to oppression, even if the majority isn't losing economic power).
Your "disappear" comment seems to miss a point. The size of the supreme court is a matter of statute. The size of each US state is a matter of statute.
It is perfectly legal under the US constitution to appoint another 100 supreme court justices of the president's and senate's choice, assuming they get the support of congress.
Similarly, it is perfectly legal under the US constitution to make Bob and Alice's house (and their daughter, Eve) in (for example) Texas its own US State, with 2 Senators and a Congressman. Or do this 1000 times, generating 2000 new Senators and 1000 new Congresscritters, all belonging to states with 3 or more people in them (I don't think you can legally sit in both the House and the Senate, so 3 is minimal; you could do it a town at a time instead, or a county, or whatever).
With that large a majority, rewriting the US constitution becomes trivial; even before that, with that large a majority on the supreme court, ridiculous rulings saying anything that faction wants to do is constitutional is trivial.
This can all be done with the consent of any one 1 US State (any US State -- that is the state where you do the 'spawn 3 person states' in) and a majority in the US Senate & Congress and the US Presidency on-board.
A piece of paper is never a shield against tyranny. At best it can make it more obvious when someone wants to become a tyrant.
What stops this from happening?
- The expectation that people will simply not obey.
- The people winning the current political game aren't eager grab the board and flip it over (which is what this is); the current political-economic setup means winners are winning. Build a new one, and they might not be winning in it.
- Revolutionary times tend to be really dangerous and bloody, even for the nominally powerful before or during the revolution.
- Actual faith in democratic institutions among the powerful.
Like most power struggles, when power seems to be passed from one group to another it gets the most dangerous. The traditional power center still has power and sees it going away, so it uses that power to lash out at the new power center. Or the new power center gains power and doesn't have the same incentives to keep things stable.
Danger signs could be a political party deligitimizing democratic norms ("We aren't a democracy", or "It isn't illegal so it is ok"), a political party with reasons to believe it is becoming obsolete, or a new demographic group gaining relative wealth compared to the rest of society (some interesting recent research has shown that minority gaining economic power often leads to oppression, even if the majority isn't losing economic power).
edited 15 hours ago
answered 16 hours ago
YakkYakk
1,126310
1,126310
1
Good points. One comment, though: in the context of American politics, it's important to be cognizant of the difference between "democratic" and "Democratic," and "republican" and "Republican." Your last paragraph is referring to "democracy," the concept, not "Democrats," the party, right?
– Jon of All Trades
16 hours ago
@JonofAllTrades Yes. Caps fixed.
– Yakk
16 hours ago
1
Downvoting for the Alice and Bob's house example. This would not be legal under the constitution because the Constitution prohibits the partitioning of a state of the union into two states unless the Current State and proposed New State agree to the partitioning. Congress cannot break Michigan into the states of Glove and Not Glove unless the Glove territory and Not Glove Territory agree to such a division. Also your examples of legitimizing Democratic Norms are problematic, but I do not have space to go into specific issues.
– hszmv
15 hours ago
1
@hszmv 2 paragraphs down I listed the requirement of consent of "1 US State (any US State)". Is that too confusing? I could move requirements before the description of the act.
– Yakk
15 hours ago
2
@hszmv I'm not seeing further value in engaging with you. If you cannot understand my answer, feel free to downvote (which I believe you have) and move on. If anyone else finds something unclear, I'd be glad to discuss it with you.
– Yakk
12 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
1
Good points. One comment, though: in the context of American politics, it's important to be cognizant of the difference between "democratic" and "Democratic," and "republican" and "Republican." Your last paragraph is referring to "democracy," the concept, not "Democrats," the party, right?
– Jon of All Trades
16 hours ago
@JonofAllTrades Yes. Caps fixed.
– Yakk
16 hours ago
1
Downvoting for the Alice and Bob's house example. This would not be legal under the constitution because the Constitution prohibits the partitioning of a state of the union into two states unless the Current State and proposed New State agree to the partitioning. Congress cannot break Michigan into the states of Glove and Not Glove unless the Glove territory and Not Glove Territory agree to such a division. Also your examples of legitimizing Democratic Norms are problematic, but I do not have space to go into specific issues.
– hszmv
15 hours ago
1
@hszmv 2 paragraphs down I listed the requirement of consent of "1 US State (any US State)". Is that too confusing? I could move requirements before the description of the act.
– Yakk
15 hours ago
2
@hszmv I'm not seeing further value in engaging with you. If you cannot understand my answer, feel free to downvote (which I believe you have) and move on. If anyone else finds something unclear, I'd be glad to discuss it with you.
– Yakk
12 hours ago
1
1
Good points. One comment, though: in the context of American politics, it's important to be cognizant of the difference between "democratic" and "Democratic," and "republican" and "Republican." Your last paragraph is referring to "democracy," the concept, not "Democrats," the party, right?
– Jon of All Trades
16 hours ago
Good points. One comment, though: in the context of American politics, it's important to be cognizant of the difference between "democratic" and "Democratic," and "republican" and "Republican." Your last paragraph is referring to "democracy," the concept, not "Democrats," the party, right?
– Jon of All Trades
16 hours ago
@JonofAllTrades Yes. Caps fixed.
– Yakk
16 hours ago
@JonofAllTrades Yes. Caps fixed.
– Yakk
16 hours ago
1
1
Downvoting for the Alice and Bob's house example. This would not be legal under the constitution because the Constitution prohibits the partitioning of a state of the union into two states unless the Current State and proposed New State agree to the partitioning. Congress cannot break Michigan into the states of Glove and Not Glove unless the Glove territory and Not Glove Territory agree to such a division. Also your examples of legitimizing Democratic Norms are problematic, but I do not have space to go into specific issues.
– hszmv
15 hours ago
Downvoting for the Alice and Bob's house example. This would not be legal under the constitution because the Constitution prohibits the partitioning of a state of the union into two states unless the Current State and proposed New State agree to the partitioning. Congress cannot break Michigan into the states of Glove and Not Glove unless the Glove territory and Not Glove Territory agree to such a division. Also your examples of legitimizing Democratic Norms are problematic, but I do not have space to go into specific issues.
– hszmv
15 hours ago
1
1
@hszmv 2 paragraphs down I listed the requirement of consent of "1 US State (any US State)". Is that too confusing? I could move requirements before the description of the act.
– Yakk
15 hours ago
@hszmv 2 paragraphs down I listed the requirement of consent of "1 US State (any US State)". Is that too confusing? I could move requirements before the description of the act.
– Yakk
15 hours ago
2
2
@hszmv I'm not seeing further value in engaging with you. If you cannot understand my answer, feel free to downvote (which I believe you have) and move on. If anyone else finds something unclear, I'd be glad to discuss it with you.
– Yakk
12 hours ago
@hszmv I'm not seeing further value in engaging with you. If you cannot understand my answer, feel free to downvote (which I believe you have) and move on. If anyone else finds something unclear, I'd be glad to discuss it with you.
– Yakk
12 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
In a democratic system like the United States, control of the government ultimately belongs to one group of people: the voting citizenry. Eliminating checks and balances would at best give you temporary control of government processes. A more likely case would be that the voters would revolt at the next election and the opposing party would sweep nearly every open seat. Instead of gaining absolute control for yourself, you gave it to your opponents who now have an electoral mandate to punish those who destroyed the system. This is likely a lot worse for you than if you never messed with the system at all.
The constitution also allows for the people to propose and pass amendments even when the entire federal government opposes them, so a united populace can go over your head and undo anything that you try to do.
The only way to gain complete control is to remove elections. As long as you're accountable to someone, that someone can always hold you accountable. And they will.
add a comment |
In a democratic system like the United States, control of the government ultimately belongs to one group of people: the voting citizenry. Eliminating checks and balances would at best give you temporary control of government processes. A more likely case would be that the voters would revolt at the next election and the opposing party would sweep nearly every open seat. Instead of gaining absolute control for yourself, you gave it to your opponents who now have an electoral mandate to punish those who destroyed the system. This is likely a lot worse for you than if you never messed with the system at all.
The constitution also allows for the people to propose and pass amendments even when the entire federal government opposes them, so a united populace can go over your head and undo anything that you try to do.
The only way to gain complete control is to remove elections. As long as you're accountable to someone, that someone can always hold you accountable. And they will.
add a comment |
In a democratic system like the United States, control of the government ultimately belongs to one group of people: the voting citizenry. Eliminating checks and balances would at best give you temporary control of government processes. A more likely case would be that the voters would revolt at the next election and the opposing party would sweep nearly every open seat. Instead of gaining absolute control for yourself, you gave it to your opponents who now have an electoral mandate to punish those who destroyed the system. This is likely a lot worse for you than if you never messed with the system at all.
The constitution also allows for the people to propose and pass amendments even when the entire federal government opposes them, so a united populace can go over your head and undo anything that you try to do.
The only way to gain complete control is to remove elections. As long as you're accountable to someone, that someone can always hold you accountable. And they will.
In a democratic system like the United States, control of the government ultimately belongs to one group of people: the voting citizenry. Eliminating checks and balances would at best give you temporary control of government processes. A more likely case would be that the voters would revolt at the next election and the opposing party would sweep nearly every open seat. Instead of gaining absolute control for yourself, you gave it to your opponents who now have an electoral mandate to punish those who destroyed the system. This is likely a lot worse for you than if you never messed with the system at all.
The constitution also allows for the people to propose and pass amendments even when the entire federal government opposes them, so a united populace can go over your head and undo anything that you try to do.
The only way to gain complete control is to remove elections. As long as you're accountable to someone, that someone can always hold you accountable. And they will.
answered 13 hours ago
btabta
32714
32714
add a comment |
add a comment |
Is this possible, and if not, what stops it from happening?
I want to say a few words about "what stops it from happening" and point out a short academic paper from January that has a little bit of insight. The paper looks at countries that transitioned to democracy in recent history then compares where they are today, and what factors might contribute to that change. Not directly comparable to the United States, but hopefully still offers some insight.
The paper divides these changes into several categories, though the ones relevant to this discussion are breakdowns, erosions (similar to breakdown, but still have "reasonably free and fair elections" where "fair" simply means an accurate vote count), and stagnations.
(a detour to discuss action to "stop it from happening")
I wanted to highlight one line from the description of the "breakdown" category that says
The most common route to breakdown among third-wave democracies, however, has been an incremental path without a clear breaking point.
This reminds me of the Douglas quote:
As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air — however slight — lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
- To Young Lawyers Section of the Washington State Bar Association, The Douglas Letters : Selections from the Private Papers of Justice William O. Douglas (1987), edited by Melvin I. Urofsky and Philip E. Urofsky, p. 162.
I would look into the answers at What is the most effective way to participate democratically as a regular citizen in a stable parliamentary democracy? and How can the common citizen defend democracy principles? for further reflection.
(back to the paper, and discussing causes)
They do some analysis on the data and report on the results:
Our calculations showed that regimes that started off with a higher level of liberal democracy, that were geographically surrounded by democracies, and that experienced better rates of economic growth were less likely to break down ...
Interestingly, they find the connection "inconclusive" between democracy breakdown and being a wealthier country. They also give the disappointing note
Against expectations, prior democratic history and levels of state capacity show no association with breakdowns.
My takeaway from the paper is that in order for democracy to survive, there needs to be internal and external pressure to help "push" it along. (Note, I phrase this as "pressure" since this is all dependent on country, culture, and current moment in history, and really none of this should be taken in absolutes).
What I mean by external pressure is interaction with other/neighboring countries should be smooth. I think this is primarily based on economics, and what system of government would allow this. I already got sidetracked here and cut a few paragraphs not entirely relevant, but I just want to note that this is not just economics focused on goods, but other aspects such as citizens working across a border or overseas, immigration and emigration, trade agreements, monetary and fiscal policy, etc. and how a particular form of government might affect those things.
Internal pressure would be citizen involvement (I think @Fizz answer highlights this nicely), but also checks and balances. The paper I cite here makes a passing reference to Uribe in Colombia, where the Constitutional Court rejected a referendum that would have allowed him to run for a 3rd term. These kinds of checks and balances are important to avoid descent into autocracy, which I think is the main concern of the original question.
Reference:
Mainwaring, Scott & Bizzarro, Fernando. "The Fates of Third-Wave Democracies." Journal of Democracy, vol. 30 no. 1, 2019, pp. 99-113. Project MUSE, doi:10.1353/jod.2019.0008
or online at https://muse.jhu.edu/article/713726
add a comment |
Is this possible, and if not, what stops it from happening?
I want to say a few words about "what stops it from happening" and point out a short academic paper from January that has a little bit of insight. The paper looks at countries that transitioned to democracy in recent history then compares where they are today, and what factors might contribute to that change. Not directly comparable to the United States, but hopefully still offers some insight.
The paper divides these changes into several categories, though the ones relevant to this discussion are breakdowns, erosions (similar to breakdown, but still have "reasonably free and fair elections" where "fair" simply means an accurate vote count), and stagnations.
(a detour to discuss action to "stop it from happening")
I wanted to highlight one line from the description of the "breakdown" category that says
The most common route to breakdown among third-wave democracies, however, has been an incremental path without a clear breaking point.
This reminds me of the Douglas quote:
As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air — however slight — lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
- To Young Lawyers Section of the Washington State Bar Association, The Douglas Letters : Selections from the Private Papers of Justice William O. Douglas (1987), edited by Melvin I. Urofsky and Philip E. Urofsky, p. 162.
I would look into the answers at What is the most effective way to participate democratically as a regular citizen in a stable parliamentary democracy? and How can the common citizen defend democracy principles? for further reflection.
(back to the paper, and discussing causes)
They do some analysis on the data and report on the results:
Our calculations showed that regimes that started off with a higher level of liberal democracy, that were geographically surrounded by democracies, and that experienced better rates of economic growth were less likely to break down ...
Interestingly, they find the connection "inconclusive" between democracy breakdown and being a wealthier country. They also give the disappointing note
Against expectations, prior democratic history and levels of state capacity show no association with breakdowns.
My takeaway from the paper is that in order for democracy to survive, there needs to be internal and external pressure to help "push" it along. (Note, I phrase this as "pressure" since this is all dependent on country, culture, and current moment in history, and really none of this should be taken in absolutes).
What I mean by external pressure is interaction with other/neighboring countries should be smooth. I think this is primarily based on economics, and what system of government would allow this. I already got sidetracked here and cut a few paragraphs not entirely relevant, but I just want to note that this is not just economics focused on goods, but other aspects such as citizens working across a border or overseas, immigration and emigration, trade agreements, monetary and fiscal policy, etc. and how a particular form of government might affect those things.
Internal pressure would be citizen involvement (I think @Fizz answer highlights this nicely), but also checks and balances. The paper I cite here makes a passing reference to Uribe in Colombia, where the Constitutional Court rejected a referendum that would have allowed him to run for a 3rd term. These kinds of checks and balances are important to avoid descent into autocracy, which I think is the main concern of the original question.
Reference:
Mainwaring, Scott & Bizzarro, Fernando. "The Fates of Third-Wave Democracies." Journal of Democracy, vol. 30 no. 1, 2019, pp. 99-113. Project MUSE, doi:10.1353/jod.2019.0008
or online at https://muse.jhu.edu/article/713726
add a comment |
Is this possible, and if not, what stops it from happening?
I want to say a few words about "what stops it from happening" and point out a short academic paper from January that has a little bit of insight. The paper looks at countries that transitioned to democracy in recent history then compares where they are today, and what factors might contribute to that change. Not directly comparable to the United States, but hopefully still offers some insight.
The paper divides these changes into several categories, though the ones relevant to this discussion are breakdowns, erosions (similar to breakdown, but still have "reasonably free and fair elections" where "fair" simply means an accurate vote count), and stagnations.
(a detour to discuss action to "stop it from happening")
I wanted to highlight one line from the description of the "breakdown" category that says
The most common route to breakdown among third-wave democracies, however, has been an incremental path without a clear breaking point.
This reminds me of the Douglas quote:
As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air — however slight — lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
- To Young Lawyers Section of the Washington State Bar Association, The Douglas Letters : Selections from the Private Papers of Justice William O. Douglas (1987), edited by Melvin I. Urofsky and Philip E. Urofsky, p. 162.
I would look into the answers at What is the most effective way to participate democratically as a regular citizen in a stable parliamentary democracy? and How can the common citizen defend democracy principles? for further reflection.
(back to the paper, and discussing causes)
They do some analysis on the data and report on the results:
Our calculations showed that regimes that started off with a higher level of liberal democracy, that were geographically surrounded by democracies, and that experienced better rates of economic growth were less likely to break down ...
Interestingly, they find the connection "inconclusive" between democracy breakdown and being a wealthier country. They also give the disappointing note
Against expectations, prior democratic history and levels of state capacity show no association with breakdowns.
My takeaway from the paper is that in order for democracy to survive, there needs to be internal and external pressure to help "push" it along. (Note, I phrase this as "pressure" since this is all dependent on country, culture, and current moment in history, and really none of this should be taken in absolutes).
What I mean by external pressure is interaction with other/neighboring countries should be smooth. I think this is primarily based on economics, and what system of government would allow this. I already got sidetracked here and cut a few paragraphs not entirely relevant, but I just want to note that this is not just economics focused on goods, but other aspects such as citizens working across a border or overseas, immigration and emigration, trade agreements, monetary and fiscal policy, etc. and how a particular form of government might affect those things.
Internal pressure would be citizen involvement (I think @Fizz answer highlights this nicely), but also checks and balances. The paper I cite here makes a passing reference to Uribe in Colombia, where the Constitutional Court rejected a referendum that would have allowed him to run for a 3rd term. These kinds of checks and balances are important to avoid descent into autocracy, which I think is the main concern of the original question.
Reference:
Mainwaring, Scott & Bizzarro, Fernando. "The Fates of Third-Wave Democracies." Journal of Democracy, vol. 30 no. 1, 2019, pp. 99-113. Project MUSE, doi:10.1353/jod.2019.0008
or online at https://muse.jhu.edu/article/713726
Is this possible, and if not, what stops it from happening?
I want to say a few words about "what stops it from happening" and point out a short academic paper from January that has a little bit of insight. The paper looks at countries that transitioned to democracy in recent history then compares where they are today, and what factors might contribute to that change. Not directly comparable to the United States, but hopefully still offers some insight.
The paper divides these changes into several categories, though the ones relevant to this discussion are breakdowns, erosions (similar to breakdown, but still have "reasonably free and fair elections" where "fair" simply means an accurate vote count), and stagnations.
(a detour to discuss action to "stop it from happening")
I wanted to highlight one line from the description of the "breakdown" category that says
The most common route to breakdown among third-wave democracies, however, has been an incremental path without a clear breaking point.
This reminds me of the Douglas quote:
As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air — however slight — lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
- To Young Lawyers Section of the Washington State Bar Association, The Douglas Letters : Selections from the Private Papers of Justice William O. Douglas (1987), edited by Melvin I. Urofsky and Philip E. Urofsky, p. 162.
I would look into the answers at What is the most effective way to participate democratically as a regular citizen in a stable parliamentary democracy? and How can the common citizen defend democracy principles? for further reflection.
(back to the paper, and discussing causes)
They do some analysis on the data and report on the results:
Our calculations showed that regimes that started off with a higher level of liberal democracy, that were geographically surrounded by democracies, and that experienced better rates of economic growth were less likely to break down ...
Interestingly, they find the connection "inconclusive" between democracy breakdown and being a wealthier country. They also give the disappointing note
Against expectations, prior democratic history and levels of state capacity show no association with breakdowns.
My takeaway from the paper is that in order for democracy to survive, there needs to be internal and external pressure to help "push" it along. (Note, I phrase this as "pressure" since this is all dependent on country, culture, and current moment in history, and really none of this should be taken in absolutes).
What I mean by external pressure is interaction with other/neighboring countries should be smooth. I think this is primarily based on economics, and what system of government would allow this. I already got sidetracked here and cut a few paragraphs not entirely relevant, but I just want to note that this is not just economics focused on goods, but other aspects such as citizens working across a border or overseas, immigration and emigration, trade agreements, monetary and fiscal policy, etc. and how a particular form of government might affect those things.
Internal pressure would be citizen involvement (I think @Fizz answer highlights this nicely), but also checks and balances. The paper I cite here makes a passing reference to Uribe in Colombia, where the Constitutional Court rejected a referendum that would have allowed him to run for a 3rd term. These kinds of checks and balances are important to avoid descent into autocracy, which I think is the main concern of the original question.
Reference:
Mainwaring, Scott & Bizzarro, Fernando. "The Fates of Third-Wave Democracies." Journal of Democracy, vol. 30 no. 1, 2019, pp. 99-113. Project MUSE, doi:10.1353/jod.2019.0008
or online at https://muse.jhu.edu/article/713726
answered 15 hours ago
BurnsBABurnsBA
1,211412
1,211412
add a comment |
add a comment |
I think the answer to your question is essentially: "yes". If a political party or a bipartisan group decided to overthrow the basics of the Constitutional system, no one could realistically stop them short of an actual popular revolution.
I think the most obvious reason as to why nothing like this has really happened is that "democracies" rely on the supposed validity of the "democratic process" to justify the fact that they can engage in what would otherwise be seen as tyrannical and illegal.
I think if we had a draft, massive taxation, an NSA and CIA that spy on us and overthrow other nations' governments without any formal declaration of war, and there was no pretense to Democracy, anyone would immediately identify that regime as tyrannical. But because we have a vote every so often for some of the people involved, we have been conditioned to believe that their actions reflect "the will of the people" in some mystical sense. Actions that the government takes even now would, if done by any other organization, be seen as criminal. So why do we put up with it? Because we believe that the oligarchy run by the RNC and the DNC is somehow democratically chosen and in a broad sense "fairly".
If either party were to try to strong-arm everyone in this way, they would lose their legitimacy and the current relatively benign populace might stop accepting the actions of the government. There would be massive civil unrest.
However, a deeper reason why no party does this is because the two parties are just not that different. This means they have no reason to actually do something so extreme. The news makes it sound like they are polar opposites, but usually its just a matter of degree. The Republicans want to invade 3 countries, the Democrats want only to invade 2, and do a "police action" in another. The Democrats want to increase Social Security payments by 4%, the Republicans want to increase it by 3.25%.
These ludicrously tiny differences are paired with highly emotional rhetoric to give you the idea that you are choosing between night and day, but we are not given the option to pick someone who has genuinely different views: witness the DNC's sidelining of Bernie Sanders and manipulation of the primaries to ensure that we got another corporatist warhawk in Hillary Clinton.
They do little bits here and there to try and show the country how different they are from the other side, but when the cameras go off, they sit down and hash out a deal that gives them both red meat to throw to their base and enriches them and their friends at our expense.
The following is from: The Facist Threat
I wouldn't say that we truly have a dictatorship of one man in this country, but we do have a form of dictatorship of one sector of
government over the entire country. The executive branch has spread so
dramatically over the last century that it has become a joke to speak
of checks and balances. What the kids learn in civics class has
nothing to do with reality.
The executive state is the state as we know it, all flowing from the
White House down. The role of the courts is to enforce the will of the
executive. The role of the legislature is to ratify the policy of the
executive.
Further, this executive is not really about the person who seems to be
in charge. The president is only the veneer, and the elections are
only the tribal rituals we undergo to confer some legitimacy on the
institution. In reality, the nation-state lives and thrives outside
any "democratic mandate." Here we find the power to regulate all
aspects of life and the wicked power to create the money necessary to
fund this executive rule.
As for the leadership principle, there is no greater lie in American
public life than the propaganda we hear every four years about how the
new president/messiah is going to usher in the great dispensation of
peace, equality, liberty, and global human happiness. The idea here is
that the whole of society is really shaped and controlled by a single
will — a point that requires a leap of faith so vast that you have to
disregard everything you know about reality to believe it.
And yet people do. The hope for a messiah reached a fevered pitch with
Obama's election. The civic religion was in full-scale worship mode —
of the greatest human who ever lived or ever shall live. It was a
despicable display.
Another lie that the American people believe is that presidential
elections bring about regime change. This is sheer nonsense. The Obama
state is the Bush state; the Bush state was the Clinton state; the
Clinton state was the Bush state; the Bush state was the Reagan state.
We can trace this back and back in time and see overlapping
appointments, bureaucrats, technicians, diplomats, Fed officials,
financial elites, and so on. Rotation in office occurs not because of
elections but because of mortality.
New contributor
add a comment |
I think the answer to your question is essentially: "yes". If a political party or a bipartisan group decided to overthrow the basics of the Constitutional system, no one could realistically stop them short of an actual popular revolution.
I think the most obvious reason as to why nothing like this has really happened is that "democracies" rely on the supposed validity of the "democratic process" to justify the fact that they can engage in what would otherwise be seen as tyrannical and illegal.
I think if we had a draft, massive taxation, an NSA and CIA that spy on us and overthrow other nations' governments without any formal declaration of war, and there was no pretense to Democracy, anyone would immediately identify that regime as tyrannical. But because we have a vote every so often for some of the people involved, we have been conditioned to believe that their actions reflect "the will of the people" in some mystical sense. Actions that the government takes even now would, if done by any other organization, be seen as criminal. So why do we put up with it? Because we believe that the oligarchy run by the RNC and the DNC is somehow democratically chosen and in a broad sense "fairly".
If either party were to try to strong-arm everyone in this way, they would lose their legitimacy and the current relatively benign populace might stop accepting the actions of the government. There would be massive civil unrest.
However, a deeper reason why no party does this is because the two parties are just not that different. This means they have no reason to actually do something so extreme. The news makes it sound like they are polar opposites, but usually its just a matter of degree. The Republicans want to invade 3 countries, the Democrats want only to invade 2, and do a "police action" in another. The Democrats want to increase Social Security payments by 4%, the Republicans want to increase it by 3.25%.
These ludicrously tiny differences are paired with highly emotional rhetoric to give you the idea that you are choosing between night and day, but we are not given the option to pick someone who has genuinely different views: witness the DNC's sidelining of Bernie Sanders and manipulation of the primaries to ensure that we got another corporatist warhawk in Hillary Clinton.
They do little bits here and there to try and show the country how different they are from the other side, but when the cameras go off, they sit down and hash out a deal that gives them both red meat to throw to their base and enriches them and their friends at our expense.
The following is from: The Facist Threat
I wouldn't say that we truly have a dictatorship of one man in this country, but we do have a form of dictatorship of one sector of
government over the entire country. The executive branch has spread so
dramatically over the last century that it has become a joke to speak
of checks and balances. What the kids learn in civics class has
nothing to do with reality.
The executive state is the state as we know it, all flowing from the
White House down. The role of the courts is to enforce the will of the
executive. The role of the legislature is to ratify the policy of the
executive.
Further, this executive is not really about the person who seems to be
in charge. The president is only the veneer, and the elections are
only the tribal rituals we undergo to confer some legitimacy on the
institution. In reality, the nation-state lives and thrives outside
any "democratic mandate." Here we find the power to regulate all
aspects of life and the wicked power to create the money necessary to
fund this executive rule.
As for the leadership principle, there is no greater lie in American
public life than the propaganda we hear every four years about how the
new president/messiah is going to usher in the great dispensation of
peace, equality, liberty, and global human happiness. The idea here is
that the whole of society is really shaped and controlled by a single
will — a point that requires a leap of faith so vast that you have to
disregard everything you know about reality to believe it.
And yet people do. The hope for a messiah reached a fevered pitch with
Obama's election. The civic religion was in full-scale worship mode —
of the greatest human who ever lived or ever shall live. It was a
despicable display.
Another lie that the American people believe is that presidential
elections bring about regime change. This is sheer nonsense. The Obama
state is the Bush state; the Bush state was the Clinton state; the
Clinton state was the Bush state; the Bush state was the Reagan state.
We can trace this back and back in time and see overlapping
appointments, bureaucrats, technicians, diplomats, Fed officials,
financial elites, and so on. Rotation in office occurs not because of
elections but because of mortality.
New contributor
add a comment |
I think the answer to your question is essentially: "yes". If a political party or a bipartisan group decided to overthrow the basics of the Constitutional system, no one could realistically stop them short of an actual popular revolution.
I think the most obvious reason as to why nothing like this has really happened is that "democracies" rely on the supposed validity of the "democratic process" to justify the fact that they can engage in what would otherwise be seen as tyrannical and illegal.
I think if we had a draft, massive taxation, an NSA and CIA that spy on us and overthrow other nations' governments without any formal declaration of war, and there was no pretense to Democracy, anyone would immediately identify that regime as tyrannical. But because we have a vote every so often for some of the people involved, we have been conditioned to believe that their actions reflect "the will of the people" in some mystical sense. Actions that the government takes even now would, if done by any other organization, be seen as criminal. So why do we put up with it? Because we believe that the oligarchy run by the RNC and the DNC is somehow democratically chosen and in a broad sense "fairly".
If either party were to try to strong-arm everyone in this way, they would lose their legitimacy and the current relatively benign populace might stop accepting the actions of the government. There would be massive civil unrest.
However, a deeper reason why no party does this is because the two parties are just not that different. This means they have no reason to actually do something so extreme. The news makes it sound like they are polar opposites, but usually its just a matter of degree. The Republicans want to invade 3 countries, the Democrats want only to invade 2, and do a "police action" in another. The Democrats want to increase Social Security payments by 4%, the Republicans want to increase it by 3.25%.
These ludicrously tiny differences are paired with highly emotional rhetoric to give you the idea that you are choosing between night and day, but we are not given the option to pick someone who has genuinely different views: witness the DNC's sidelining of Bernie Sanders and manipulation of the primaries to ensure that we got another corporatist warhawk in Hillary Clinton.
They do little bits here and there to try and show the country how different they are from the other side, but when the cameras go off, they sit down and hash out a deal that gives them both red meat to throw to their base and enriches them and their friends at our expense.
The following is from: The Facist Threat
I wouldn't say that we truly have a dictatorship of one man in this country, but we do have a form of dictatorship of one sector of
government over the entire country. The executive branch has spread so
dramatically over the last century that it has become a joke to speak
of checks and balances. What the kids learn in civics class has
nothing to do with reality.
The executive state is the state as we know it, all flowing from the
White House down. The role of the courts is to enforce the will of the
executive. The role of the legislature is to ratify the policy of the
executive.
Further, this executive is not really about the person who seems to be
in charge. The president is only the veneer, and the elections are
only the tribal rituals we undergo to confer some legitimacy on the
institution. In reality, the nation-state lives and thrives outside
any "democratic mandate." Here we find the power to regulate all
aspects of life and the wicked power to create the money necessary to
fund this executive rule.
As for the leadership principle, there is no greater lie in American
public life than the propaganda we hear every four years about how the
new president/messiah is going to usher in the great dispensation of
peace, equality, liberty, and global human happiness. The idea here is
that the whole of society is really shaped and controlled by a single
will — a point that requires a leap of faith so vast that you have to
disregard everything you know about reality to believe it.
And yet people do. The hope for a messiah reached a fevered pitch with
Obama's election. The civic religion was in full-scale worship mode —
of the greatest human who ever lived or ever shall live. It was a
despicable display.
Another lie that the American people believe is that presidential
elections bring about regime change. This is sheer nonsense. The Obama
state is the Bush state; the Bush state was the Clinton state; the
Clinton state was the Bush state; the Bush state was the Reagan state.
We can trace this back and back in time and see overlapping
appointments, bureaucrats, technicians, diplomats, Fed officials,
financial elites, and so on. Rotation in office occurs not because of
elections but because of mortality.
New contributor
I think the answer to your question is essentially: "yes". If a political party or a bipartisan group decided to overthrow the basics of the Constitutional system, no one could realistically stop them short of an actual popular revolution.
I think the most obvious reason as to why nothing like this has really happened is that "democracies" rely on the supposed validity of the "democratic process" to justify the fact that they can engage in what would otherwise be seen as tyrannical and illegal.
I think if we had a draft, massive taxation, an NSA and CIA that spy on us and overthrow other nations' governments without any formal declaration of war, and there was no pretense to Democracy, anyone would immediately identify that regime as tyrannical. But because we have a vote every so often for some of the people involved, we have been conditioned to believe that their actions reflect "the will of the people" in some mystical sense. Actions that the government takes even now would, if done by any other organization, be seen as criminal. So why do we put up with it? Because we believe that the oligarchy run by the RNC and the DNC is somehow democratically chosen and in a broad sense "fairly".
If either party were to try to strong-arm everyone in this way, they would lose their legitimacy and the current relatively benign populace might stop accepting the actions of the government. There would be massive civil unrest.
However, a deeper reason why no party does this is because the two parties are just not that different. This means they have no reason to actually do something so extreme. The news makes it sound like they are polar opposites, but usually its just a matter of degree. The Republicans want to invade 3 countries, the Democrats want only to invade 2, and do a "police action" in another. The Democrats want to increase Social Security payments by 4%, the Republicans want to increase it by 3.25%.
These ludicrously tiny differences are paired with highly emotional rhetoric to give you the idea that you are choosing between night and day, but we are not given the option to pick someone who has genuinely different views: witness the DNC's sidelining of Bernie Sanders and manipulation of the primaries to ensure that we got another corporatist warhawk in Hillary Clinton.
They do little bits here and there to try and show the country how different they are from the other side, but when the cameras go off, they sit down and hash out a deal that gives them both red meat to throw to their base and enriches them and their friends at our expense.
The following is from: The Facist Threat
I wouldn't say that we truly have a dictatorship of one man in this country, but we do have a form of dictatorship of one sector of
government over the entire country. The executive branch has spread so
dramatically over the last century that it has become a joke to speak
of checks and balances. What the kids learn in civics class has
nothing to do with reality.
The executive state is the state as we know it, all flowing from the
White House down. The role of the courts is to enforce the will of the
executive. The role of the legislature is to ratify the policy of the
executive.
Further, this executive is not really about the person who seems to be
in charge. The president is only the veneer, and the elections are
only the tribal rituals we undergo to confer some legitimacy on the
institution. In reality, the nation-state lives and thrives outside
any "democratic mandate." Here we find the power to regulate all
aspects of life and the wicked power to create the money necessary to
fund this executive rule.
As for the leadership principle, there is no greater lie in American
public life than the propaganda we hear every four years about how the
new president/messiah is going to usher in the great dispensation of
peace, equality, liberty, and global human happiness. The idea here is
that the whole of society is really shaped and controlled by a single
will — a point that requires a leap of faith so vast that you have to
disregard everything you know about reality to believe it.
And yet people do. The hope for a messiah reached a fevered pitch with
Obama's election. The civic religion was in full-scale worship mode —
of the greatest human who ever lived or ever shall live. It was a
despicable display.
Another lie that the American people believe is that presidential
elections bring about regime change. This is sheer nonsense. The Obama
state is the Bush state; the Bush state was the Clinton state; the
Clinton state was the Bush state; the Bush state was the Reagan state.
We can trace this back and back in time and see overlapping
appointments, bureaucrats, technicians, diplomats, Fed officials,
financial elites, and so on. Rotation in office occurs not because of
elections but because of mortality.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 4 hours ago
Jason BrayJason Bray
1112
1112
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
Redwolf Programs is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Redwolf Programs is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Redwolf Programs is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Redwolf Programs is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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12
Making a constitutional amendment also also requires the agreement of three quarters of the states. Unless enough states' legislatures (or possibly state ratifying conventions) are also of the same party (or in agreement with it), changing the constitution could be tough.
– Steve Melnikoff
yesterday
18
This question has attracted two downvotes and a vote to close, apparently without any explanatory comment. Yet the question goes to the heart of the US constitution and would be a perfect opportunity to explain how and why -- and to what extent -- the constitution addresses this issue. The question deserves an answer and the Redwolf Programs deserves to know what people's reservations about the question are, to have an opportunity to address them.
– phoog
yesterday
@SteveMelnikoff Might want to post an answer, that's a pretty good point.
– Redwolf Programs
yesterday
4
Read up on the political history of the 1930s - FDR had a mostly compliant legislature and was only sometimes stymied by the supreme court, which he cowed into accepting absurd positions on the threat that he would just expand the number of judges until he had enough to just do what he wanted anyway. Fortunately he didn't go quite that far, but it was very close. And as always, the court can make a ruling, but can it enforce it?
– pluckedkiwi
17 hours ago
In short: yes. If you actually have a whole party that 1) gets elected in vast numbers and 2) doesn't mind ruining the democracy and making the president a dictator then yes it's possible. Although you need a supermajority to make some major changes.
– xyious
15 hours ago